View Poll Results: Was America better off in 1985, or are we better off today in 2015?

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  • 1985 was better overall

    31 14.09%
  • 2015 is better overall

    189 85.91%
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Thread: 1985 vs 2015

  1. #211
    Villiage Idiot
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    Re: 1985 vs 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Woah.... who said anything about vouchers? School is a privilege, you pay for it.
    So only kids from wealthier families should go to school? You are suggesting a system that locks the children of the poor and lower middle class into poverty...forever. But I guess that would be good for children from advantaged families, they would have less competition and thus would be pretty much guaranteed high paying jobs for even a moderate education level.

    Can you give me a list of undereducated countries that are highly productive and where the population has a standard of living higher than in the US?
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

  2. #212
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    Re: 1985 vs 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    So only kids from wealthier families should go to school? You are suggesting a system that locks the children of the poor and lower middle class into poverty...forever. But I guess that would be good for children from advantaged families, they would have less competition and thus would be pretty much guaranteed high paying jobs for even a moderate education level.

    Can you give me a list of undereducated countries that are highly productive and where the population has a standard of living higher than in the US?
    Pretty scary.

  3. #213
    Villiage Idiot
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    Re: 1985 vs 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    It wasn't my intention to insult anyone. Our economy needs people to work service jobs such as at McDonalds. Those aren't gonna be your Harvard grads - would be a bad allocation talent.

    Just like on a football team, you're gonna have your superstars, and you're gonna have your backups. Not an insult to say that someone needs to shovel the coal.
    Almost all jobs take some basic education these days.

    And I like your football team analigy. The coach doesn't know in advance which ones are going to be the superstars and which ones will be the bench warmers. Over time, the cream rises to the top, sometimes those star players spent their first few years warming the bench.

    If we had a crystal ball that would predict who are going to be the winners and who are going to be the losers, then I would be all for culling the losers out of school as early as possible. Heck, for that matter we could just send them straight to prison before they harm anyone.

    But we don't have crystal balls, and I seriously doubt that setting up v social/economic classes would result in any better distribution of resources than we have today. There are many kids from rich families who end up in jail or end up being slackers for all their life, and plenty of poor kids who grow up to do something significant. If we try to winners and losers based upon the the students family income, then we would be making a huge mistake.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

  4. #214
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    Re: 1985 vs 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    So when kids turn 5, do we aptitude test them and pretend like the results will accurately reflect their abilities at age 18?

    Or do we assign kids to schools based upon family income or class stature?

    Do you think that there are groups of children who we shouldn't even bother to try to teach? And if so, at what age to we cull them out of the education system and send them to work camps?
    I think a one size fits all solution is both short sighted and ineffective. I think when you're educating children you have to understand how they learn, and keep in mind that some kids are just never going to be good at certain things. I think motivating children involves encouraging them in those things they love. I think spending time teaching them what they love is a far better approach than setting a curriculum and forcing down their throats those things they detest and aren't good at.

  5. #215
    Villiage Idiot
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    Re: 1985 vs 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Here thats no longer done because its presented (by teachers) as unfair-they say that being around high achieving kids will provide a roll model. Except it hasn't worked.

    I was lucky enough to be in honors classes. I teach a technical trade now, and these kids (18-25 generally) can't even read.
    Obviously it was done when you were in school (by your own admittance), and I know for a fact its still done in my state.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

  6. #216
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    Re: 1985 vs 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I think a one size fits all solution is both short sighted and ineffective. I think when you're educating children you have to understand how they learn, and keep in mind that some kids are just never going to be good at certain things. I think motivating children involves encouraging them in those things they love. I think spending time teaching them what they love is a far better approach than setting a curriculum and forcing down their throats those things they detest and aren't good at.
    I agree, plus people continue to change well after they are 18. Poor students become serious and get better, some do their own thing that school would never have prepared them for either. The problem is in trying to make outcomes equal as a measure of some amorphous "fairness".

  7. #217
    Villiage Idiot
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    Re: 1985 vs 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Thats nice, but thats one state. Here teachers unions are one of the strongest special interest groups and actively oppose school choice, voucher programs, etc despite higher test scores and higher satisfaction.

    Competition is a good thing. Too bad so many oppose it.
    Maybe the issue is just with your state then. We don't have teachers unions in my state.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

  8. #218
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    Re: 1985 vs 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    Obviously it was done when you were in school (by your own admittance), and I know for a fact its still done in my state.
    I took AP classes for the grades, you got an extra point above each letter grade for AP, and because it would get college credit if you did well on the AP exams.

    But I did take standard classes, and it was like being in the class in gangsters paradise, lean on me, etc.

    You can't prop people up forever, eventually its sink or swim time, and education should reflect that. **** kids can't even give me change at the drive through anymore.

  9. #219
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    Re: 1985 vs 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    I agree, plus people continue to change well after they are 18. Poor students become serious and get better, some do their own thing that school would never have prepared them for either. The problem is in trying to make outcomes equal as a measure of some amorphous "fairness".
    You can't make outcome equal, but the government has a role in making sure people are treated fairly. Otherwise, what is the purpose of government?

  10. #220
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    Re: 1985 vs 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    Maybe the issue is just with your state then. We don't have teachers unions in my state.
    We do here, and its an active adversary in preventing higher scores (more money never works), increasing competition, etc.

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