View Poll Results: Why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

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  • It's just a coincidence, an accident of economics.

    1 0.74%
  • These are just lies fed to us by the liberal media!

    3 2.21%
  • Yes, certain socialized programs DO benefit a democracy's economic health.

    132 97.06%
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Thread: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

  1. #71
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    There are three observations:

    (1) ALL first-world democracies are generally socialized, and have big government, high effective taxes, and strong regulation, whereas
    (2) NO first-world nations at all meet the conservative demands of zero socialism, small government, low taxes, and weak (if any) regulation. And
    (3) ALL nations which DO have small governments, low taxes, and weak regulations ARE third-world nations.

    If including socialist programs such as Medicare, Medicaid, Obamacare, Head Start, free public schools and the like are (as conservative pundits claim) a sure way to the economic dustbin of history, why is it that America (and the British Commonwealth before us) started down this road eighty years ago (FDR's New Deal) and we've been the most successful nations in human history? Is it just an accident or coincidence? Or does the inclusion of such socialist programs actually contribute to a nation's economic health?
    try all that "socialized" stuff without Capitalism and see where you end up.

    in any event, I don't know what you end game is here.... are you trying to say we'll get better and better if we have more government and higher taxes?...

  2. #72
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That's interesting. You came in and propose to suggest that you knew who my friends, family, and social circle were to the point where you could confidently conclude that I didn't act with people who had a certain ideological lean. Yet you accuse me of Condescension.
    No. I proposed that the people you knew weren't socialists, based on your misrepresentation of socialism (no doubt due to their misrepresentations of socialism) not due to assuming I had intimate knowledge of your social circle. Of course I accused you of condescension, you claimed that socialists (in the broad sense, I.E millions of people) didn't know their own ideology.
    Either I'm right or you're wrong.

  3. #73
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    There are three observations:

    (1) ALL first-world democracies are generally socialized, and have big government, high effective taxes, and strong regulation, whereas
    (2) NO first-world nations at all meet the conservative demands of zero socialism, small government, low taxes, and weak (if any) regulation. And
    (3) ALL nations which DO have small governments, low taxes, and weak regulations ARE third-world nations.

    If including socialist programs such as Medicare, Medicaid, Obamacare, Head Start, free public schools and the like are (as conservative pundits claim) a sure way to the economic dustbin of history, why is it that America (and the British Commonwealth before us) started down this road eighty years ago (FDR's New Deal) and we've been the most successful nations in human history? Is it just an accident or coincidence? Or does the inclusion of such socialist programs actually contribute to a nation's economic health?
    How do you consider the US a socialized democracy? We have no universal healthcare system, college tuition in insanely high, and millionaires pay no taxes. What planet are you living on?

  4. #74
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    I suppose it depends on how you define “success”. If you define “success” by the power and robustness of the government, then perhaps you have a point. I would rather define success by the liberty and prosperity of the people; and by this definition, your entire argument falls flat.
    You can look at my country Sweden that is one of the most "socialist" western democracy. We have for example goverment funded universities, heavily subsidized daycare, universal healthcare and an extensive safety net. That this not only leads to for example long life exptancy and low child mortality rate. But also to that Sweden can be a competitive economy.

    List of countries by infant mortality rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    For example that Sweden is amongst the top countries in the world when it comes to social mobility, innovation and having a international competitive economy.

    The American Myth of Social Mobility*|*Howard Steven Friedman

    Global Innovation Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Global Competitiveness Report - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    That at the same Sweden even being a small country have had alot of global successful company. Both older companies like Volvo, H & M and IKEA to modern IT companies. For example Skype, Spotify and also Mojang the makers of Minecraft.
    Last edited by Bergslagstroll; 02-11-15 at 01:16 PM.

  5. #75
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dobsdot00 View Post
    How do you consider the US a socialized democracy? We have no universal healthcare system, college tuition in insanely high, and millionaires pay no taxes. What planet are you living on?
    Like all the other first-world democracies, we have significant elements of socialism as integral parts of our governments - they have more than we do, but we do have programs that are socialist in nature, like Medicare, Medicaid, free public schools, and many other different forms of public assistance. Don't get me wrong - we DO need UHC, we DO need to get our college tuition down to the same level as Germany's, and we DO need to ensure that yeah, millionaires pay at least as much in taxes as their secretaries do. But we've got as good as we can get for now, as long as the right wing controls the purse strings....
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  6. #76
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    try all that "socialized" stuff without Capitalism and see where you end up.

    in any event, I don't know what you end game is here.... are you trying to say we'll get better and better if we have more government and higher taxes?...
    Did I say that we need to have radically higher taxes? Well, actually, when it comes to the very wealthy, we DO need higher taxes. I don't remember a single one of them going to the soup lines back in the 1950's when their tax rates were 90%. This isn't to say that they'll actually pay higher taxes - they'd just reinvest the vast majority of their profits back into growing their business like they did in the 1950's, thereby avoiding paying the taxes but also growing their businesses...which is good for everybody all the way down to the lowest-level workers.

    That said, we don't need radically higher taxes for everyone or a government that's radically bigger than what it is. What we do need is a population that realizes that properly funding schools is NOT a waste of taxpayer money, that properly funding bridge maintenance and repair is NOT a waste of taxpayer money, that ensuring that everyone has access to quality health insurance and health care DOES pay greater dividends down the road than what it would cost now.

    If you want to live in a first-world nation, then you MUST be willing to do your share to pay for what's required for that nation to maintain its first-world status: top-quality schools, good roads and bridges, regulatory agencies to keep the communities orderly and to keep corruption in check, access to health insurance and health care to keep the population relatively healthy.

    Is this really such a terrible thing to consider?
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  7. #77
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by glen contrarian View Post
    like all the other first-world democracies, we have significant elements of socialism as integral parts of our governments - they have more than we do, but we do have programs that are socialist in nature, like medicare, medicaid, free public schools, and many other different forms of public assistance. Don't get me wrong - we do need uhc, we do need to get our college tuition down to the same level as germany's, and we do need to ensure that yeah, millionaires pay at least as much in taxes as their secretaries do. But we've got as good as we can get for now, as long as the right wing controls the purse strings....

    and the founders were dead set against collective laws for our nation- federalist 63

  8. #78
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    What a load of nonsense. Without free markets the steam engine would have been useless, for it would not have been put to productive use. Without free markets, there would have been no industrial revolution. The increases in wealth of the 19th century would have been nonexistent. This is a historical fact, and your attempt at rewriting it is petty.
    Remind me again how a hypothetical can be a fact?
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  9. #79
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    I suppose it depends on how you define “success”. If you define “success” by the power and robustness of the government, then perhaps you have a point. I would rather define success by the liberty and prosperity of the people; and by this definition, your entire argument falls flat.
    I define the success of a nation by the well-being of its population - after all, what is a nation without its population? I don't really see how one can honestly define the success of a nation otherwise.

    And you have to be careful about how you define 'liberty', because in the third-world nations I've been to, even though the population is mostly very poor by our standards, they are subject to FAR fewer laws and regulations as we are here in America. It's not something you can really grasp unless you've been there. If 'liberty' is defined as (in so many words) the freedom to do whatever the heck one wants to do, wherever one wants to do it, and whenever one wants to do so, then there's a heck of a lot of third-world nations out there where the regular people are freer than we Americans are.

    Wanna set up a little store on the street? No problem - no license needed...or if one is needed, just pay off the licensor. Sell whatever you want (within reason). Don't want to pay minimum wage? No problem - there is no minimum wage, and even if there is, it's unenforceable. Don't want to pay taxes? No problem - nobody's checking up on you. Don't want to give paid sick days? No problem. Nobody else does, either. Wanna fire a person because he's gay or black or wears plaid shirts? No problem - fire away.

    Sounds like what a lot of libertarians and Republicans want, doesn't it? But that's life in a lot of third world nations.
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    Remind me again how a hypothetical can be a fact?
    Ironic that you say that, because the argument I was responding to (that the steam engine would have existed and spread without free markets) is also a hypothetical. I guess hypotheticals are facts when socialists use them, right?
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
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