View Poll Results: Why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

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  • It's just a coincidence, an accident of economics.

    1 0.74%
  • These are just lies fed to us by the liberal media!

    3 2.21%
  • Yes, certain socialized programs DO benefit a democracy's economic health.

    132 97.06%
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Thread: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

  1. #51
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    I believe I asked you if you've ever LIVED in a third-world nation. Have you? Have you lived somewhere that you can set up a business - almost ANY business - without any license at all (or if a license is needed, just pay off the licensor)? Have you lived somewhere that income taxes aren't collected because there's no reliable identification database in order to tell who did and did not pay taxes? Do you own a home now in such a place (like I do) where there's little or no building codes (and inspectors are very easy to pay off), and you can build pretty much what you want, where you want? No environmental restrictions, either?

    Have you ever lived in a place where there's no enforced minimum wage, no mandates for employers to cover unemployment insurance or health insurance, no mandates for employers to meet safety or environmental standards? Have you ever lived in a place where there's no restriction against having a monopoly?

    Dude, you want real economic freedom, if you have money and you want to do whatever the heck you want to do with YOUR money, a third-world nation's the place to be.

    What you're probably referring to is the CORRUPTION...and let me tell you, guy, if you think America's corrupt, you've got ZERO clue as to what it's like in third-world nations where public servants (cops, teachers, whatever) are paid peanuts, and have to take bribes in order to feed their own families. When our brothers immigrated here from the Philippines, one of the most interesting lessons they had to learn was that no, you can't just bribe your way out of a traffic ticket in America!
    You don't have to live somewhere to know the extent to which free markets exist. Your argument is just plain stupid, and you have a faulty definition of free markets. Most African nations have virtually no property rights. Government corruption further undermines free markets there.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Sure. Talk to them here on the forum, in real life, I also read their works.


    I'm guessing you are now going to adopt the No True Socialist Fallacy to explain that those socialists aren't real socialists, socialism is a magical unicorn that poops leprechauns and access to the means of production for everyone, and have never been found, which is why none of Socialisms' failures can be held against it .
    Condescension doesn't masque the clear fact that you have no idea what you are talking about.
    Either I'm right or you're wrong.

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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Words matter we're not a democracy. That word has specific meaning.

    Law and argument hinges on semantics, one has to know what you're talking about to effectively discuss it
    The USA is a democracy of sorts. It is a democratic republic with socialsm and capitalism as part of it's economic fabric.
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    To quote Plutarch: "An imbalance between rich and poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all Republics."

    Generally speaking, a prosperous society can not last in the face of extensive wealth centralization. The reason no first world economies have unfettered capitalistic free markets is because it has been proven to be inefficient and corruptive. The best customer of American industry is the well-paid and well-fed worker. Not corporate fatcats.

  5. #55
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Nonsense. Steam power would have been useless if free markets did not develop it and put it to productive use. Common workers saw their standards of living improve over the 19th century. Your attempt at rewriting history has failed.
    Guy, steam power would have spread with or without a free market. All the free market did was to help it spread faster.

    If you knew anything at all about technological progress, you'd know the truth of Emerson's 'better mousetrap' quote - which didn't say anything about mousetraps, interestingly enough: "If a man has good corn or wood, or boards, or pigs, to sell, or can make better chairs or knives, crucibles or church organs, than anybody else, you will find a broad hard-beaten road to his house, though it be in the woods."

    "though it be in the woods" refers to wherever someone might be...even if it's in a communist nation.

    Want examples? How about the implementation of freeways - it was in Nazi Germany (who also kickstarted the idea of rockets), as did the first truly effective use of jet aircraft and submarines. Stealth technology - it came from the Soviet Union (as did submarine-launched ICBM's and several other ideas our military copied (yes, copied) from them). And the world's largest network of high-speed rail is in communist China.

    A free market helps - there's no argument there - but you're doing yourself a great disservice by underestimating those you don't like or distrust.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  6. #56
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    Condescension doesn't masque the clear fact that you have no idea what you are talking about.
    That's interesting. You came in and propose to suggest that you knew who my friends, family, and social circle were to the point where you could confidently conclude that I didn't act with people who had a certain ideological lean. Yet you accuse me of Condescension.

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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    There are three observations:

    (1) ALL first-world democracies are generally socialized, and have big government, high effective taxes, and strong regulation, whereas
    (2) NO first-world nations at all meet the conservative demands of zero socialism, small government, low taxes, and weak (if any) regulation. And
    (3) ALL nations which DO have small governments, low taxes, and weak regulations ARE third-world nations.

    If including socialist programs such as Medicare, Medicaid, Obamacare, Head Start, free public schools and the like are (as conservative pundits claim) a sure way to the economic dustbin of history, why is it that America (and the British Commonwealth before us) started down this road eighty years ago (FDR's New Deal) and we've been the most successful nations in human history? Is it just an accident or coincidence? Or does the inclusion of such socialist programs actually contribute to a nation's economic health?
    How many of the more socialized first world economies are on their asses, or standing by to be on their asses?
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    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Hm...how do you define "economic liberty"? And last I checked, America DOES have extensive state intervention, and our private property rights are not as strong as you might think (eminent domain, RICO act, HOA's). I can tell you from personal experience that I can do a heck of a lot more with my house over in the Philippines than I can with any home in a subdivision here!

    In other words, gotta watch the definitions - it's so easy to claim that we've got economic liberty...but whose definition of economic liberty are we using? The conservative "I-can-do-what-I-want-it's-MY-money!!!!" definition? Or the liberal "We-must-level-the-economic-playing-field" definition?
    Or we can give some serious consideration to what Williams said. The man has a PhD in economics and is a tenured professor at George Mason University and has been studying and teaching these kinds of concepts for a very long time now. Do you just dismiss his assessment as irrelevant? Or does it merit at least a look at what he said?
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  9. #59
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    To quote Plutarch: "An imbalance between rich and poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all Republics."

    Generally speaking, a prosperous society can not last in the face of extensive wealth centralization. The reason no first world economies have unfettered capitalistic free markets is because it has been proven to be inefficient and corruptive. The best customer of American industry is the well-paid and well-fed worker. Not corporate fatcats.
    Too much regulation is causing that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #60
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Guy, steam power would have spread with or without a free market. All the free market did was to help it spread faster.

    If you knew anything at all about technological progress, you'd know the truth of Emerson's 'better mousetrap' quote - which didn't say anything about mousetraps, interestingly enough: "If a man has good corn or wood, or boards, or pigs, to sell, or can make better chairs or knives, crucibles or church organs, than anybody else, you will find a broad hard-beaten road to his house, though it be in the woods."

    "though it be in the woods" refers to wherever someone might be...even if it's in a communist nation.

    Want examples? How about the implementation of freeways - it was in Nazi Germany (who also kickstarted the idea of rockets), as did the first truly effective use of jet aircraft and submarines. Stealth technology - it came from the Soviet Union (as did submarine-launched ICBM's and several other ideas our military copied (yes, copied) from them). And the world's largest network of high-speed rail is in communist China.

    A free market helps - there's no argument there - but you're doing yourself a great disservice by underestimating those you don't like or distrust.
    What a load of nonsense. Without free markets the steam engine would have been useless, for it would not have been put to productive use. Without free markets, there would have been no industrial revolution. The increases in wealth of the 19th century would have been nonexistent. This is a historical fact, and your attempt at rewriting it is petty.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

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