View Poll Results: Why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

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  • It's just a coincidence, an accident of economics.

    1 0.74%
  • These are just lies fed to us by the liberal media!

    3 2.21%
  • Yes, certain socialized programs DO benefit a democracy's economic health.

    132 97.06%
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Thread: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

  1. #41
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    You think most third world nations are economically free? What a joke. You don't even know what economic freedom is if you believe that nonsense. I suggest looking at some actual data, not your own fantasy beliefs. Most African nations are some of the least economically free nations on the planet.
    I believe I asked you if you've ever LIVED in a third-world nation. Have you? Have you lived somewhere that you can set up a business - almost ANY business - without any license at all (or if a license is needed, just pay off the licensor)? Have you lived somewhere that income taxes aren't collected because there's no reliable identification database in order to tell who did and did not pay taxes? Do you own a home now in such a place (like I do) where there's little or no building codes (and inspectors are very easy to pay off), and you can build pretty much what you want, where you want? No environmental restrictions, either?

    Have you ever lived in a place where there's no enforced minimum wage, no mandates for employers to cover unemployment insurance or health insurance, no mandates for employers to meet safety or environmental standards? Have you ever lived in a place where there's no restriction against having a monopoly?

    Dude, you want real economic freedom, if you have money and you want to do whatever the heck you want to do with YOUR money, a third-world nation's the place to be.

    What you're probably referring to is the CORRUPTION...and let me tell you, guy, if you think America's corrupt, you've got ZERO clue as to what it's like in third-world nations where public servants (cops, teachers, whatever) are paid peanuts, and have to take bribes in order to feed their own families. When our brothers immigrated here from the Philippines, one of the most interesting lessons they had to learn was that no, you can't just bribe your way out of a traffic ticket in America!
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  2. #42
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    I guess you are willfully choosing to ignore history. The largest economic expansion in human history, the Industrial Revolution, was the result of free markets--particularly the free market economy of the United States. Wealth increased across all classes, with the poor wealthier than ever before. Your argument "the weakest fall the the wayside" is just empty, hyperbolic rhetoric.
    Wrong. The Industrial Revolution was not the result of free markets. Free markets did help it spread, sure, but what MADE the Industrial Revolution was the advent of steam power and all its associated technologies like railroads and steamships. Learn your history, guy. And while you're at it, learn how the common workers lived during the Industrial Revolution and ask yourself if that's really freedom....

    Again, if big government, high effective taxes, and strong regulation were SO terrible for a nation's economy, then instead of first-world democracies becoming the nations with the strongest economies and highest standards of living, we would be third-world nations.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  3. #43
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    it's very difficult to find that balance, and it's nearly impossible to implement it when the majority of the country is at least partially blinded by partisan loyalties. even if the ideal balance were to be presented on a gilded platter, the chances of getting it passed are almost nil.

    nuance is a forgotten art in a pissed off hyperpartisan world.
    Quoted for truth!
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  4. #44
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Like I said, quibbling over semantics and nothing more.

    America, the major nations of the former British Commonwealth, Japan, Taiwan, S. Korea, France, Germany (and the rest of most of Western Europe) all have certain things in common, one of which is that they are all representative democracies...and they are all part of what is termed the first world, where third-world level poverty is generally unknown.

    You know what I am saying. Why is it that these nations, these representative democracies - or whatever label you want to put on them, they still share many governmental similarities - are still the most successful nations in human history when it comes to the strength of their economies, the stability of their governments, and the standard of living of their respective populations.

    Why is that? Why are they - in the light of human history - so wildly successful, when ALL of them have had included as integral parts of their governments patently socialist programs that touch every corner of their societies?

    Why?
    Quibbling over semantics, for example, is whether the constitutional founders were 'liberal' as 'liberal' is defined in modern day America. The spin on such discussion can, well, make your head spin.

    It is NOT unreasonable to at least loosely define the terms 'democracy', 'socialist' etc., however, in a discussion of whether such governments promote first world or third world economies.

    But whatever the definitions, I think Walter Williams PhD economist pretty well boils it down to the following:

    . . .We do not fully know what makes some societies more affluent than others; however, we can make some guesses based on correlations. Rank countries according to their economic systems. Conceptually, we could arrange them from those more capitalistic (having a large market sector and private property rights) to the more socialistic (with extensive state intervention, planning and weak private property rights). Then consult Amnesty International's ranking of countries according to human rights abuses going from those with the greatest human rights protections to those with the least. Then get World Bank income statistics and rank countries from highest to lowest per capita income.

    Having compiled those three lists, one would observe a very strong, though imperfect correlation: Those countries with greater economic liberty and private property rights tend also to have stronger protections of human rights. And as an important side benefit of that greater economic liberty and human rights protections, their people are wealthier. We need to persuade our fellow man around the globe that liberty is a necessary ingredient for prosperity. . . .
    Self-Inflicted Poverty by Walter E. Williams on Creators.com - A Syndicate Of Talent

    So which countries have stronger property rights coupled with human rights protections? It isn't socialism.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  5. #45
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    Are these not a natural progression as a democracy grows, economy expands and a society matures?
    If that were the case than such would work for all democracies...but there's many democracies that are third-world nations. The example I love to use is the Philippines - it's very much a democracy, a representative democracy modeled in almost all respects after our own. But the government is not nearly so comprehensive or intrusive as our own, taxes on individuals are almost unenforceable, and regulation there is a joke. In other words, according to conservative economic dogma, they should be kicking economic ass and taking names.

    But they're not.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  6. #46
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    If that were the case than such would work for all democracies...but there's many democracies that are third-world nations. The example I love to use is the Philippines - it's very much a democracy, a representative democracy modeled in almost all respects after our own. But the government is not nearly so comprehensive or intrusive as our own, taxes on individuals are almost unenforceable, and regulation there is a joke. In other words, according to conservative economic dogma, they should be kicking economic ass and taking names.

    But they're not.
    Legal system, not mature, corruption rampant, they have yet to mature.
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  7. #47
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Quibbling over semantics, for example, is whether the constitutional founders were 'liberal' as 'liberal' is defined in modern day America. The spin on such discussion can, well, make your head spin.

    It is NOT unreasonable to at least loosely define the terms 'democracy', 'socialist' etc., however, in a discussion of whether such governments promote first world or third world economies.

    But whatever the definitions, I think Walter Williams PhD economist pretty well boils it down to the following:

    . . .We do not fully know what makes some societies more affluent than others; however, we can make some guesses based on correlations. Rank countries according to their economic systems. Conceptually, we could arrange them from those more capitalistic (having a large market sector and private property rights) to the more socialistic (with extensive state intervention, planning and weak private property rights). Then consult Amnesty International's ranking of countries according to human rights abuses going from those with the greatest human rights protections to those with the least. Then get World Bank income statistics and rank countries from highest to lowest per capita income.

    Having compiled those three lists, one would observe a very strong, though imperfect correlation: Those countries with greater economic liberty and private property rights tend also to have stronger protections of human rights. And as an important side benefit of that greater economic liberty and human rights protections, their people are wealthier. We need to persuade our fellow man around the globe that liberty is a necessary ingredient for prosperity. . . .
    Self-Inflicted Poverty by Walter E. Williams on Creators.com - A Syndicate Of Talent

    So which countries have stronger property rights coupled with human rights protections? It isn't socialism.
    Hm...how do you define "economic liberty"? And last I checked, America DOES have extensive state intervention, and our private property rights are not as strong as you might think (eminent domain, RICO act, HOA's). I can tell you from personal experience that I can do a heck of a lot more with my house over in the Philippines than I can with any home in a subdivision here!

    In other words, gotta watch the definitions - it's so easy to claim that we've got economic liberty...but whose definition of economic liberty are we using? The conservative "I-can-do-what-I-want-it's-MY-money!!!!" definition? Or the liberal "We-must-level-the-economic-playing-field" definition?
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  8. #48
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    Yeah, child labor, mine worked dying by the xxx company towns and shopping at the company store. You are being selective.
    And as the economy developed, child labor became less and less common--even before child labor laws were passed. The fact remains that free markets resulted in the largest economic expansion in human history, and if not for free markets we would be living in poverty today.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
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  9. #49
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    Legal system, not mature, corruption rampant, they have yet to mature.
    Wrong.

    When people are paid peanuts, they find other ways to supplement their income. When public servants are paid peanuts, they take bribes to feed their families. As time goes on, some of those advance in the organization - and since they had to take bribes all through their careers just to feed their families, why should they stop taking bribes now that they're high-ranking officers? And now that they're high-ranking officers taking bribes, such becomes the norm with all the businesses and corporations who have to deal with them.

    If you don't want a corrupt nation, it MUST start with paying good middle-class wages to the public servants. You can't even begin to address corruption without that one point. But what must a nation have in order to pay those public servants? MORE taxes.

    And high taxes are the price of admission to living in a first-world nation.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  10. #50
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Wrong. The Industrial Revolution was not the result of free markets. Free markets did help it spread, sure, but what MADE the Industrial Revolution was the advent of steam power and all its associated technologies like railroads and steamships. Learn your history, guy. And while you're at it, learn how the common workers lived during the Industrial Revolution and ask yourself if that's really freedom....

    Again, if big government, high effective taxes, and strong regulation were SO terrible for a nation's economy, then instead of first-world democracies becoming the nations with the strongest economies and highest standards of living, we would be third-world nations.
    Nonsense. Steam power would have been useless if free markets did not develop it and put it to productive use. Common workers saw their standards of living improve over the 19th century. Your attempt at rewriting history has failed.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

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