View Poll Results: Why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

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  • It's just a coincidence, an accident of economics.

    1 0.74%
  • These are just lies fed to us by the liberal media!

    3 2.21%
  • Yes, certain socialized programs DO benefit a democracy's economic health.

    132 97.06%
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Thread: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

  1. #11
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Because Democracy is a stepping stone to Socialism.
    "Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people." - Penn Jillette.

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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Just like the other guy, you're wanting to quibble about semantics in order to avoid answering the question...

    ...because you know down deep in your gut that the obvious answer would force you to go against conservative dogma.
    Correction though, I'm not a conservative. Nor did I disagree materially with any points you made. However the democracy thing is a pet peeve of mine, because I am very well read in US history
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  3. #13
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    I think it's very rare that there are true anarchist out there (even though there may be a couple around here)...Or true Facists/ Dictatorship--ists...

    Most people believe in at least a little of the term you are using to describe any sort of central government intervention. But, I am afraid the way you are using "socialized" is too broad. People don't really like calling themselves socialist just because they believe in some sort of central government... because the term usually means something much different.

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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    There are three observations:

    (1) ALL first-world democracies are generally socialized, and have big government, high effective taxes, and strong regulation, whereas
    False.

    (2) NO first-world nations at all meet the conservative demands of zero socialism, small government, low taxes, and weak (if any) regulation. And
    True. And NO first-world nations at all meet the socialist demands of zero capitalism, massive government, high taxes, and heavy regulation. They are all more capitalist than not.

    (3) ALL nations which DO have small governments, low taxes, and weak regulations ARE third-world nations.
    False.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    There are three observations:

    (1) ALL first-world democracies are generally socialized, and have big government, high effective taxes, and strong regulation, whereas
    (2) NO first-world nations at all meet the conservative demands of zero socialism, small government, low taxes, and weak (if any) regulation. And
    (3) ALL nations which DO have small governments, low taxes, and weak regulations ARE third-world nations.

    If including socialist programs such as Medicare, Medicaid, Obamacare, Head Start, free public schools and the like are (as conservative pundits claim) a sure way to the economic dustbin of history, why is it that America (and the British Commonwealth before us) started down this road eighty years ago (FDR's New Deal) and we've been the most successful nations in human history? Is it just an accident or coincidence? Or does the inclusion of such socialist programs actually contribute to a nation's economic health?
    But to attempt to somewhat answer your question,
    Humans want power, and they want "stuff"...especially if they don't have to do anything for it.
    Government is a great way for a human to obtain power. In china the best jobs are the government jobs... because you get to have tons of benefits and influence, you can help the people you want to help, you can get the people you care about jobs, and you get to have more connections that expands your power.... mostly at the expense of others who don't have such government connections. Government is especially vulnerable to human greed, both from within and out... the more power, the more corruption.

    Government is also inherently less efficient. Like above... the only motivation a government agency has is to obtain more power and influence so they can have more funding. There is no competition to drive the agency to do a better job and to "stay in business". Lack of doing a good job just means it needs more funding.

    These are just two inherent flaws in a government run structure... and they are big ones. They also result in constant attempting to obtain for power or to get more benefits... There are a lot of reasons why a lot of governments have socialistic tendencies, one of them is the above(it's a natural progression of power and benefits), others are history(I would argue deeps roots in Monarchy in Europe as lead to the government structures of today there), etc

    As a American libertarian, I accept a central government is necessary. And I accept that a lot of government programs are necessary, like environment protection. But I also propose much different solutions to a lot of problems a socialist might suggest... solutions that promote competition, promote personal responsibility, freedom and limit monopolies and oligopolies.... and much of them require reducing governments power in a lot of areas and strengthening it in some.

  6. #16
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    False.


    True. And NO first-world nations at all meet the socialist demands of zero capitalism, massive government, high taxes, and heavy regulation. They are all more capitalist than not.


    False.
    When you say "false", you should show precisely how it is that there are any first-world democracies who do not have big government, high effective taxes, and strong regulation. AND you should show how there are any nations that DO have small government, low effective taxes, and weak (or no) regulation are not third-world nations.

    And btw - did I say that first-world nations ARE socialist? No. They are socialized democracies, meaning that they ALL have integrated into their governments programs which are socialist in nature. My points stand.
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  7. #17
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    But to attempt to somewhat answer your question,
    Humans want power, and they want "stuff"...especially if they don't have to do anything for it.
    Government is a great way for a human to obtain power. In china the best jobs are the government jobs... because you get to have tons of benefits and influence, you can help the people you want to help, you can get the people you care about jobs, and you get to have more connections that expands your power.... mostly at the expense of others who don't have such government connections. Government is especially vulnerable to human greed, both from within and out... the more power, the more corruption.

    Government is also inherently less efficient. Like above... the only motivation a government agency has is to obtain more power and influence so they can have more funding. There is no competition to drive the agency to do a better job and to "stay in business". Lack of doing a good job just means it needs more funding.

    These are just two inherent flaws in a government run structure... and they are big ones. They also result in constant attempting to obtain for power or to get more benefits... There are a lot of reasons why a lot of governments have socialistic tendencies, one of them is the above(it's a natural progression of power and benefits), others are history(I would argue deeps roots in Monarchy in Europe as lead to the government structures of today there), etc

    As a American libertarian, I accept a central government is necessary. And I accept that a lot of government programs are necessary, like environment protection. But I also propose much different solutions to a lot of problems a socialist might suggest... solutions that promote competition, promote personal responsibility, freedom and limit monopolies and oligopolies.... and much of them require reducing governments power in a lot of areas and strengthening it in some.
    I understand what you're trying to say - I really do. All I'm doing, though, is pointing out what has already happened. If, as conservative dogma claims, the socialist programs that are now an integral part of our governments were so bad for our economies, then why are our economies the best in recorded human history? I'm not asking for rhetoric - I'm asking those who oppose the social programs to explain why it is that, if programs such as Medicare, free public schools, and so forth are SO bad for a nation's economy, why it is that all the most successful democracies on the planet - the 'first-world democracies' - are the same ones that have had those socialist programs for multiple generations?

    Please explain their success in the face of what conservative (and libertarian) dogma claims should have happened.
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    There are three observations:

    (1) ALL first-world democracies are generally socialized, and have big government, high effective taxes, and strong regulation, whereas
    (2) NO first-world nations at all meet the conservative demands of zero socialism, small government, low taxes, and weak (if any) regulation. And
    (3) ALL nations which DO have small governments, low taxes, and weak regulations ARE third-world nations.

    If including socialist programs such as Medicare, Medicaid, Obamacare, Head Start, free public schools and the like are (as conservative pundits claim) a sure way to the economic dustbin of history, why is it that America (and the British Commonwealth before us) started down this road eighty years ago (FDR's New Deal) and we've been the most successful nations in human history? Is it just an accident or coincidence? Or does the inclusion of such socialist programs actually contribute to a nation's economic health?
    The premise of the OP is quite obviously and observably false. America was the first and original first-world nation, and for a very long time, by far the greatest example of such, and we did not become so by pursuing destructive socialist/statist/collectivist polices, but by rejecting and rebelling against such policies. To the degree that America has declined away from its former status as the preeminent first-world-nation, this decline has been driven almost entirely by our foolish adoption of these sort of policies. The end result of such policies can most clearly be seen in the history of the Союз Советских Социалистических Республик and its ultimate collapse—not exactly the epitome of a thriving first-world nation.
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    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    But what you're missing is that the nations you listed were in all cases NOT socialist states, but were DICTATORSHIPS...and dictatorship in and of itself is usually bad for an economy. They were all dictatorships that had some socialist programs...but the corruption that always comes with dictatorship is what ruined their economies.
    Power corrupts. Giving government more power only leads to a more corrupt and destructive government.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  10. #20
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    When you say "false", you should show precisely how it is that there are any first-world democracies who do not have big government, high effective taxes, and strong regulation. AND you should show how there are any nations that DO have small government, low effective taxes, and weak (or no) regulation are not third-world nations.

    And btw - did I say that first-world nations ARE socialist? No. They are socialized democracies, meaning that they ALL have integrated into their governments programs which are socialist in nature. My points stand.
    How do Luxembourg or Switzerland do as advanced societies?

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