View Poll Results: Why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

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  • It's just a coincidence, an accident of economics.

    1 0.74%
  • These are just lies fed to us by the liberal media!

    3 2.21%
  • Yes, certain socialized programs DO benefit a democracy's economic health.

    132 97.06%
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Thread: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

  1. #181
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I'd like to know how he's defining it. The US has the largest income inequality, yet our Middle Class is huge.
    I doubt that our income inequality gap is larger than that of, for example, Nigeria.
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  2. #182
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    I doubt that our income inequality gap is larger than that of, for example, Nigeria.
    MEND is backing Buhari. We'll see what happens with that when (if) Jonathan loses come next month.


    but bluntly, yeah. Places like that have two bell curves, not one - pretending like they have a greater middle class because they have less spread is dumb.

  3. #183
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    and you know who the regulations hurt the most there, is the single owner operators who run their own truck. the huge mega carriers like the ones I work for can afford to absorb the cost of more regulation.

    btw the trucking industry pays more then its fair share, in addition to permits and high diesel taxes, some states (Oregon being the prime example) charge per mileage fees for running state highways.

    and trucks heavier then 40 tons do not cause more damage to roadways, because under federal regulations on weight, to be heavier requires more axles (for instance heavy haul trailers have four axles instead of two, which spreads the weight) and wider tires (which there's also an excise tax on) Also if weight limits were lowered there would be considerably more trucks on the road, burning more fuel, causing more emmissions.

    also I would be willing to wager that one truck in a year will pay more fuel tax then any one person will in their life driving a Honda.
    You're looking at the overall amount, but you're not looking at the tax paid as a percentage of the revenue taken in. Yes, that one truck in a year might pay more fuel tax than any one person will in his or her life driving a Honda...but that Honda's probably not the livelihood of that driver, is it? You'd be more accurate to compare the fuel tax of that truck - and all other associated taxes with that line of work - to all the taxes that middle-class business owner pays running their business, from the unemployment insurance, to the state and local business taxes, to the sales taxes, to the taxes on phone/internet/electricity/sewer and whatever else it takes to run that business.

    What's more, that truck - since it does 9600 times the damage to the road that the Honda does, literally does more damage to the road in one year than the Honda will during the entire life of the driver.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  4. #184
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    If that's the definition of big government, I don't know of a single conservative who doesn't support big government.
    Then perhaps you'd do well to see how the conservative cognoscenti are all about cutting wages - or refusing to allow long-overdue wage hikes - to government workers in general, and especially when it comes to teachers. Look at the postal workers - they WERE strictly government workers for all our nation's history...until the conservatives pushed to cut the USPS out of our government and has made efforts to completely privatize our mail system. Problem with that is, do you really want to pay a worker only minimum wage when that worker's the one who's trusted with delivering social security checks and all kinds of other mail-with-identity-theft-fodder in it?

    And it's not just teachers and postal workers. The GOP slashed the funding for the IRS, which as a result just said a week or two ago that they won't be able to conduct nearly as many audits as before...and what does that mean? That means there's a whole bunch of companies and corporations out there who will be even more emboldened to cheat on their taxes...which results in less revenue for the government, which leads to less money to pay for the government to do its job.

    It's like I keep saying - you canNOT have a first-world nation if you're not wiling to pay the taxes necessary to maintain that nation's status.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  5. #185
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Wrong.

    When people are paid peanuts, they find other ways to supplement their income. When public servants are paid peanuts, they take bribes to feed their families. As time goes on, some of those advance in the organization - and since they had to take bribes all through their careers just to feed their families, why should they stop taking bribes now that they're high-ranking officers? And now that they're high-ranking officers taking bribes, such becomes the norm with all the businesses and corporations who have to deal with them.


    If you don't want a corrupt nation, it MUST start with paying good middle-class wages to the public servants. You can't even begin to address corruption without that one point. But what must a nation have in order to pay those public servants? MORE taxes.

    And high taxes are the price of admission to living in a first-world nation.
    No I am not in error. Their legal system, not mature, bribery is part of society- regardless of if it is needed to survive or not.
    High level corruption, a blind eye is turned and the economy loses.
    The pay for civil servants, reflected by an economy that has not matured as in 1st world countries. I would assume that civil servants are paid ata higher rate then their private sector counterparts?? I will leave that for you to clarify.
    Corruption is endemic.
    Yes taxes increase as an economy grows. Goes hand in hand with improving and paying for the needs of society, from education, health care, infrastructure.
    Justice system is widely corrupted.
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  6. #186
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    There are three observations:

    (1) ALL first-world democracies are generally socialized, and have big government, high effective taxes, and strong regulation, whereas
    (2) NO first-world nations at all meet the conservative demands of zero socialism, small government, low taxes, and weak (if any) regulation. And
    (3) ALL nations which DO have small governments, low taxes, and weak regulations ARE third-world nations.

    If including socialist programs such as Medicare, Medicaid, Obamacare, Head Start, free public schools and the like are (as conservative pundits claim) a sure way to the economic dustbin of history, why is it that America (and the British Commonwealth before us) started down this road eighty years ago (FDR's New Deal) and we've been the most successful nations in human history? Is it just an accident or coincidence? Or does the inclusion of such socialist programs actually contribute to a nation's economic health?
    You really wanna know why most of Europe is socialized democracies? There's two very simply answers to that; 1) During WW2, it was a necessary evil for the government to have to enforce control over the medicine and food, so it was an easy transition to fall into in the post-war era. 2) Europe got to rely on the US for it's Defense, and all that money that would of been spent went to support all the social welfare goodies.

    Take away either of those two conditions, and I doubt we'd of had the same Socialist "utopia" that is Western Europe.

  7. #187
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    You're looking at the overall amount, but you're not looking at the tax paid as a percentage of the revenue taken in. Yes, that one truck in a year might pay more fuel tax than any one person will in his or her life driving a Honda...but that Honda's probably not the livelihood of that driver, is it? You'd be more accurate to compare the fuel tax of that truck - and all other associated taxes with that line of work - to all the taxes that middle-class business owner pays running their business, from the unemployment insurance, to the state and local business taxes, to the sales taxes, to the taxes on phone/internet/electricity/sewer and whatever else it takes to run that business.

    What's more, that truck - since it does 9600 times the damage to the road that the Honda does, literally does more damage to the road in one year than the Honda will during the entire life of the driver.
    Well does an owner operator who runs a single truck with his wife count as a middle class business owner? there's a lot of regulatory stuff that goes into running a truck that most people know nothing about. as a Honda driver, you don't need separate permits for every state you run, some states have more then one permit, in California I need to carry a permit to operate, a permit to carry alcohol, a California highway patrol permit for hazmat, and a permit to haul scrap rubber (I kid you not) four permits for one state! logbooks are another requirement, then there's IFTA, you need DOT operating authority on top of that, then income taxes, fuel taxes, etc.

    and your number about 9600 times might as well be 100 or 1000,000 it's impossible to quantify because regular cars do not put wear and tear on the roads at all. of course trucks carrying 80K do all the damage they're heavier vehicles, and I think they pay more then fair share. the ironic thing is, increasing taxes and regulations on the industry will squeeze out owner ops who pay a bigger percentage of their revenues in taxes, and switch more income to mega carriers who pay their drivers crap wages and have whole teams of tax lawyers and accountants to figure out how not to pay taxes.
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    No one cares about your stupid hippy logic
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Then perhaps you'd do well to see how the conservative cognoscenti are all about cutting wages - or refusing to allow long-overdue wage hikes - to government workers in general, and especially when it comes to teachers. Look at the postal workers - they WERE strictly government workers for all our nation's history...until the conservatives pushed to cut the USPS out of our government and has made efforts to completely privatize our mail system. Problem with that is, do you really want to pay a worker only minimum wage when that worker's the one who's trusted with delivering social security checks and all kinds of other mail-with-identity-theft-fodder in it?
    It's ironic because conservatives use the constitution to justify their political views and claim the government has exceeded their authority, but hate the postal service which IS a very a specific duty of congress to create and maintain in the constitution.

    even better in the 80s they semi privatized the postal service, and put all kinds of extreme regulation on it at the same time, so they're "private" but can't do anything without congressional approval, they were basically set up for failure. they can't close a post office, can't raise rates, can't cut delivery days, etc so the whole point is to make them unmanageable to justify ending them entirely in the future... I may have to make a thread in the conspiracy theory section on this...
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    No one cares about your stupid hippy logic
    "Be careful of averages, the average person has one breast and one testicle"
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  9. #189
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    the congress only has the power to make federal law, for the foregoing powers only......of article 1 section 8, and nothing in that article deals with the personal lives of the people.

    things which concern themselves with the lifes liberty and property of the people are state powers..not federal powers...federalist 45
    Y'know, I really don't like arguing with results...and that's what you're doing. We started down the road to socialized democracy when FDR pushed through the New Deal eighty years ago, and as messy as it's been since then, we've done quite well, thank you very much.

    The point is, for all the complaints by conservatives of how terrible the government is as it allegedly oversteps its constitutional bounds, and of how many freedoms we've lost, America has for the most part only prospered in relation to the rest of the planet and - if to somewhat of a lesser extent - so have the other first-world democracies. Right now, today, the American people as a whole (meaning, not just with regards to white male heterosexuals) are more free, with MORE rights, than ever before. The claims of the Right of how we've lost so many freedoms is frankly quite Orwellian by comparison.

    So if one is to claim how wrongly our government has performed for the past several generations, one must at least first explain why it is we as a nation are doing so well (and in the big picture, yes, we are), and why it is that our people as a whole are freer, with more rights than ever before.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  10. #190
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    Nobody suggests that there be zero social programs.
    Read around a bit, especially on forums like this one, where you'll find quite a few conservatives and libertarians who indeed claim there should be zero social programs.

    The constitution laid out structures which are social structures, such as the post office and the examples that you mentioned are recognized by most conservatives, although there is much reform that needs to be done to the programs to eliminate waste and fraud.
    The post office is not a 'social structure', but an essential part of the nation's infrastructure...and has been under attack by conservatives for years. Again, read around a bit and you'll find quite a few conservatives who want to completely privatize the USPS (why do you think they pushed to have it cut off from the government?). Think about it - do you really want our social security checks and all the mail with our identity-theft-fodder information on it delivered by people making minimum wage?

    In other words, if you want to minimize waste, fraud, and abuse, you must FIRST make sure the people in such jobs have real job security and are paid middle-class wages. Otherwise, all the oversight in the world won't help.

    This country has historically been more successful than other nations for a number of reasons. Many of those reasons are being assaulted by progressives and our nation is being weakened as a result. Capitalism is the primary reason we have succeeded. The size of our nation is one reason that maintaining a capitalist structure and markets which are as free as possible are reason for our designation as the last super power.
    So let me see here - we've had progressive programs as a part of our government since FDR pushed it through eighty years ago, and we're still kicking ass, relatively speaking. We've had Medicare and Medicaid and welfare for just under half a century, and we're still kicking ass...again, relatively speaking.

    But to listen to you, we're headed for a progressive gotterdammerung, and we're now just hanging on by a capitalist thread.

    We have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. Your notion that small government and low taxes equals the third world is just a straw man. Our government should be small as possible to function efficiently, we should eliminate bloat and needless or redundant regulations and tax and spend so that we don't increase our debt.
    Would you care to show me ANY nations that have the conservative trifecta of small government, low taxes, and weak regulation that are first-world nations?

    No, you can't. Why is that?

    Would you care to show me ANY first-world democracies (other than city-states that do not have large rural areas to support and defend) that do NOT have big government, high effective taxes, and strong regulation?

    No, you can't. And again, why is that?
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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