View Poll Results: Why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

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  • It's just a coincidence, an accident of economics.

    1 0.74%
  • These are just lies fed to us by the liberal media!

    3 2.21%
  • Yes, certain socialized programs DO benefit a democracy's economic health.

    132 97.06%
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Thread: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

  1. #171
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    You have it backwards. It is the wealth that enables the public largesse. It is not the public largesse that enables the wealth.
    So why is it, then, that the nations with the largest income inequality gaps tend to have the smallest middle classes?
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  2. #172
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    Glen Contrarian's Avatar
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    the general welfare is for the union as a whole ......not the people.

    please point to a clause in the constitution which grants the congress power to makes laws giving people things.


    I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.― James Madison

    "Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government― James Madison
    Fortunately for America, the founding fathers included the ability to make laws with the understanding that there might be laws needed in the future that they themselves could not foresee.

    For instance, it might be unconstitutional in your view for there to be social security or medicare for the elderly at all...but how would the lives of our elderly be without them? In other words, be careful what you wish for.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  3. #173
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    There are three observations:

    (1) ALL first-world democracies are generally socialized, and have big government, high effective taxes, and strong regulation, whereas
    (2) NO first-world nations at all meet the conservative demands of zero socialism, small government, low taxes, and weak (if any) regulation. And
    (3) ALL nations which DO have small governments, low taxes, and weak regulations ARE third-world nations.

    If including socialist programs such as Medicare, Medicaid, Obamacare, Head Start, free public schools and the like are (as conservative pundits claim) a sure way to the economic dustbin of history, why is it that America (and the British Commonwealth before us) started down this road eighty years ago (FDR's New Deal) and we've been the most successful nations in human history? Is it just an accident or coincidence? Or does the inclusion of such socialist programs actually contribute to a nation's economic health?
    Nobody suggests that there be zero social programs. The constitution laid out structures which are social structures, such as the post office and the examples that you mentioned are recognized by most conservatives, although there is much reform that needs to be done to the programs to eliminate waste and fraud.

    This country has historically been more successful than other nations for a number of reasons. Many of those reasons are being assaulted by progressives and our nation is being weakened as a result. Capitalism is the primary reason we have succeeded. The size of our nation is one reason that maintaining a capitalist structure and markets which are as free as possible are reason for our designation as the last super power.

    We have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. Your notion that small government and low taxes equals the third world is just a straw man. Our government should be small as possible to function efficiently, we should eliminate bloat and needless or redundant regulations and tax and spend so that we don't increase our debt.
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." Attributed to Alexander Tytler

  4. #174
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Fortunately for America, the founding fathers included the ability to make laws with the understanding that there might be laws needed in the future that they themselves could not foresee.

    For instance, it might be unconstitutional in your view for there to be social security or medicare for the elderly at all...but how would the lives of our elderly be without them? In other words, be careful what you wish for.
    the congress only has the power to make federal law, for the foregoing powers only......of article 1 section 8, and nothing in that article deals with the personal lives of the people.

    things which concern themselves with the lifes liberty and property of the people are state powers..not federal powers...federalist 45

  5. #175
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Airspace would exist...but how well do you think our airline industry would function if there were no regulation of flight routes, of when planes take off and land? After a few collisions - or crashes caused by a plane flying into another plane's wake - how do you think that would affect the health of our airline industry?
    Why do you think those regulations can only exist if government implements them? Are airlines incapable of coordinating with each other? Private air traffic control is just as possible as government air traffic control. And private air traffic control does exist in the U.S. On average, it is safer and cheaper than those run by government. Contract towers, as they are known, cost on average $537,000 a year to operate, compared with $2 million for comparably busy towers staffed by the Federal Aviation Administration, according to the Department of Transportation's Office of Inspector General. In addition, the contract towers had a "significantly lower number and rate of safety incidents," the report said.

    So it looks like we might even be better off if air traffic control were entirely in private hands. No surprise there.

    And then there's the National Transportation Safety Board which investigates ALL airplane crashes big or small. Guess who benefits the most from their findings and their regulation of the manufacture and maintenance of airplanes? The rich.
    You think the rich CEOs of Boeing benefit when their planes are investigated by the NTSB? If anything the NTSB benefits your average American who uses a plane. And the NTSB is not public infrastructure. You are really grasping at straws here.

    REALLY? This retired sailor suspects that you really don't have a whole lot of experience with being at sea. And it seems that you may not be aware of just how many people with Really Nice Boats that there are.
    There are more rich people than boats, sorry. Your argument that all rich people have yachts is stupid. Second, there are far more cheap non-yacht boats than there are yachts. The coast guard doesn't spend a disproportionate amount of time helping people on yachts. Your argument is total bunk.

    And a huge number of those houses are not owned by rich people. I wouldn't even say most are. I don't agree with the federal government paying to rebuild anyone's house. But that they do is not an argument for making the rich pay more in taxes, it is an argument against disaster relief from the federal government.

    And who do you think owns the buildings in the poor neighborhoods? Is it the poor? If they did, they probably wouldn't be poor, now would they? No, sir, it's the landlords - many of whom are quite rich - who own the great majority of the buildings in poor neighborhoods.
    Oh please. The police serve more than just landlords. And if your apartment is on fire, that is a major problem not just for the landlord but for you. You probably have property in that apartment, and if it burns down you don't have a place to stay. But because you don't own the place, you have a lot less at stake than the landlord to begin with. If you own property and it burns down, you could lose a ton of money. If you are just renting it, you don't lose any money.

    You really don't know the difference in the damage to our infrastructure that is done by semis, do you?

    The weight limit for nearly all interstate highways is 40 tons. According to a government study, one 40-ton truck does as much damage to the road as 9,600 cars. But permits frequently allow vehicles to exceed that amount by two tons in Texas and sometimes as much as 85 tons in Nevada. Some states grant one-time permits that allow trucks to be considerably heavier.
    Another irrelevant argument. Semis already pay higher gas taxes since they require more gas. And the tax on diesel is higher, and most if not all are fueled by diesel. And the rich that own them already pay a vastly higher amount of taxes than the guy driving the smart car. So your argument, again, is bunk.

    What are you even trying to argue? You say the rich use public infrastructure more, and thus they should pay more. Under a flat tax rate they are already paying more. You just want other people to pay for the crap you want, period. That's all you care about. You don't care if the rich made themselves or inherited their money, you just want that money for yourself.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

  6. #176
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    So why is it, then, that the nations with the largest income inequality gaps tend to have the smallest middle classes?
    That's a tautology. The nations with the largest income inequality gaps will, by definition, be nations with small middle classes.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  7. #177
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    That's true with personal taxes, but not so much with corporate taxes (though many corporations find ways to avoid paying those taxes).

    But to give you your due, you asked a pertinent question - where does one draw the line? I'd have to say that when almost all government workers are paid middle-class wages, it's almost certainly a 'big government'...whereas those governments that can only pay their workers poverty-level wages are small governments. In order for a government to pay middle-class wages, that government has to have enough tax revenue to do so...and as a direct result, the people who work within that government, since they do not need to rely on bribes in order to feed their families, are mostly honest brokers and cannot be easily bribed. YES, some will be dishonest, some will be bribed, but the vast majority won't be.

    What follows is that when the well-paid government workers do their jobs, they tend to do it well...which means that those assigned to regulatory agencies are (usually) going to do their jobs properly and hold the corporate sector to what the regulations require. Thus you have the high effective taxes and strong regulation that are part of Big Government...and in such governments throughout the world, the corruption level is relatively low.

    And this goes back to what I've said so many times - high taxes are the price of admission to living in a first-world democracy.
    If that's the definition of big government, I don't know of a single conservative who doesn't support big government.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  8. #178
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    You really don't know the difference in the damage to our infrastructure that is done by semis, do you?

    The weight limit for nearly all interstate highways is 40 tons. According to a government study, one 40-ton truck does as much damage to the road as 9,600 cars. But permits frequently allow vehicles to exceed that amount by two tons in Texas and sometimes as much as 85 tons in Nevada. Some states grant one-time permits that allow trucks to be considerably heavier.
    .
    and you know who the regulations hurt the most there, is the single owner operators who run their own truck. the huge mega carriers like the ones I work for can afford to absorb the cost of more regulation.

    btw the trucking industry pays more then its fair share, in addition to permits and high diesel taxes, some states (Oregon being the prime example) charge per mileage fees for running state highways.

    and trucks heavier then 40 tons do not cause more damage to roadways, because under federal regulations on weight, to be heavier requires more axles (for instance heavy haul trailers have four axles instead of two, which spreads the weight) and wider tires (which there's also an excise tax on) Also if weight limits were lowered there would be considerably more trucks on the road, burning more fuel, causing more emmissions.

    also I would be willing to wager that one truck in a year will pay more fuel tax then any one person will in their life driving a Honda.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    No one cares about your stupid hippy logic
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  9. #179
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Hate to tell you this, guy, but those who are arrogant/narcissistic/egoistic and have a thirst for power are found in ALL forms of government. The difference between democracies and non-democracies is that we CAN vote them out.
    I agree, That's why they offer goodies, so the don't get voted out. Conservative government, offering maximum liberty as the "goodie", is only attractive after harsh oppression. Generally the ineffectual conservative societies fail under the strain of corruption, not as the result of liberty. As is said, a libertine society requires a good and moral people.
    "It is only when men contemplate the greatness of God that they can come to realize their own inadequacy." Jean Calvin

  10. #180
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    That's a tautology. The nations with the largest income inequality gaps will, by definition, be nations with small middle classes.
    I'd like to know how he's defining it. The US has the largest income inequality, yet our Middle Class is huge.

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