View Poll Results: Why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

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  • It's just a coincidence, an accident of economics.

    1 0.74%
  • These are just lies fed to us by the liberal media!

    3 2.21%
  • Yes, certain socialized programs DO benefit a democracy's economic health.

    132 97.06%
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Thread: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

  1. #161
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    I was just arguing about billionaires with someone, which your article isn't devoted to. Perhaps i should have clarified. While a 'millionaire' may be able to afford more taxes, i'm not any delusion that his wealth alone can fix the roads, bridges, and deplorable schools in this state

    But yes, there is certainly something wrong with inherited wealth, while others struggle to get by

    Notably, the article's definition of "working" but excluding inheritance is kind of a joke. Mitt Romney might fall into that category, but he created this wealth for himself by taking advantage of the connections his family had. To suggest he rose from poverty or something is quite misleading. I mean someone could inherit $995,000 and earn $5000 and by that article's standards, they are a "working millionaire"
    That didn't seem to me to be the definition of working at all in the article. But it is beside the point. Why is there something wrong with inheriting wealth? If you have parents are grandparents who worked hard and build up some hugely successful company, and they leave that wealth to you, so what? What act of immorality has been committed?
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

  2. #162
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    You really don't understand what I mean by infrastructure, do you? It's not just public transportation and schools - per person, those are relatively inexpensive.
    I never said infrastructure was just public transportation and schools. Those were just examples silly.

    For the rich, there's the airspace for their jets, the time taken up for their safety by the FAA. There's the taxpayer-funded infrastructure for their yachts, including having the Coast Guard ready to come save them when their yacht's in trouble. There's their houses on the beach, which the taxpayers replace (yes, we do) when a hurricane destroys them. There's the time that they see our senators and representatives face-to-face telling them what they want. There's the fire and police protection for their businesses, the roads where their delivery trucks go.

    On top of all that, the very rich normally pay less in taxes percentage-wise as their secretaries do - Warren Buffet said it himself.

    You really need to widen your mind, and stop trying to protect the rich - they're not the 'job creators'. We in the middle class are the real job creators, always have been. Think about the big companies out there - how many of them were started by multi-millionaires? Outside the financial sector and perhaps Big Oil, not many. Apple? Started in a garage. So did Microsoft. Goodyear started in a kitchen or some such. The stories of middle-class people making it big are effectively endless.
    The air is not public infrastructure. Airspace would exist without government involved at all. Not all rich people have yachts, and they would be just fine without the coast guard. Taxpayers do not replace their house on the beach. Everyone has access to fire and police protections--not just the rich--and the police seem to be spending a lot more of their time in poorer neighborhoods, so that's a big fail right there. Everyone uses roads, and not all rich people own or use delivery trucks.

    Even if everything you said was true, which is not, the rich pay more for all of these things anyway. And you are right. Many great companies were starting by people who weren't rich. And they have every right to keep the money they make, and share that money with their children or whoever they leave it to, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

    I also find it ironic that you say the stories of middle-class people making it big are endless, and then say the vast majority of people who are rich inherited it. You're contradicting yourself buddy
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

  3. #163
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    Erm, yes he did?

    He listed high speed rail in communist China, as well as progression made by Germany/Russia in the early-mid 20th century. Free market does help foster technologiccal progression, as he admitted. However, a free market is not a necessity for progression, as you claimed was fact.
    And those progressions are possible because of economic freedom, as I already pointed out in response to them. As to China, the technologies used for high speed rail were developed as a result of economic freedom, and would be impossible without it. All China is doing is hiring actors on the market to build high speed rail. Sure, it is possible that some socialist regime get's lucky and develops some technology. And it might get even luckier and find that said technology is something people demand. Nobody disputes that. But on the free market, technological progress occurs at a much faster and more efficient pace than it could ever possibly occur otherwise.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

  4. #164
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    I never said infrastructure was just public transportation and schools. Those were just examples silly.

    The air is not public infrastructure. Airspace would exist without government involved at all.
    Airspace would exist...but how well do you think our airline industry would function if there were no regulation of flight routes, of when planes take off and land? After a few collisions - or crashes caused by a plane flying into another plane's wake - how do you think that would affect the health of our airline industry?

    And then there's the National Transportation Safety Board which investigates ALL airplane crashes big or small. Guess who benefits the most from their findings and their regulation of the manufacture and maintenance of airplanes? The rich.

    Not all rich people have yachts, and they would be just fine without the coast guard.
    REALLY? This retired sailor suspects that you really don't have a whole lot of experience with being at sea. And it seems that you may not be aware of just how many people with Really Nice Boats that there are. You're in CA, so why don't you head to the coastal cities - say, like Santa Monica where there's hundreds of boats just within one marina. Take away the Coast Guard, and you're suddenly going to find a helluva lot of rich people raising cain and calling their congressmen.

    Taxpayers do not replace their house on the beach.
    Um, yeah, we sorta do just that.

    Everyone has access to fire and police protections--not just the rich--and the police seem to be spending a lot more of their time in poorer neighborhoods, so that's a big fail right there.
    And who do you think owns the buildings in the poor neighborhoods? Is it the poor? If they did, they probably wouldn't be poor, now would they? No, sir, it's the landlords - many of whom are quite rich - who own the great majority of the buildings in poor neighborhoods.

    Everyone uses roads, and not all rich people own or use delivery trucks.
    You really don't know the difference in the damage to our infrastructure that is done by semis, do you?

    The weight limit for nearly all interstate highways is 40 tons. According to a government study, one 40-ton truck does as much damage to the road as 9,600 cars. But permits frequently allow vehicles to exceed that amount by two tons in Texas and sometimes as much as 85 tons in Nevada. Some states grant one-time permits that allow trucks to be considerably heavier.

    Even if everything you said was true, which is not, the rich pay more for all of these things anyway.
    Actually, everything I said was true - as you can see in the links I gave you above - and the problem is that a lot of these very, very rich people don't pump their money back into our economy, but instead send it overseas into tax shelters in places like the Bahamas or the Cayman Islands so they can hide their money from the IRS. You really should learn to be a bit more cynical about the right's eagerness to "protect the rights of the rich".

    And you are right. Many great companies were starting by people who weren't rich. And they have every right to keep the money they make, and share that money with their children or whoever they leave it to, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
    Again, the price of admission to live in a first-world nation is to pay the taxes that are necessary for that nation to maintain its status as a first-world nation. YES, we all want to keep whatever we earn - I am a small business owner myself. But just as I look outside my store windows right now, I see the sidewalks, the smoothly-paved street, the street signs, the Post Office across the street, the stoplights (and red-light cameras) at the intersection...all of which make it easier for people to find and park at MY business...and all of which are paid by MY tax dollars.

    I also find it ironic that you say the stories of middle-class people making it big are endless, and then say the vast majority of people who are rich inherited it. You're contradicting yourself buddy
    Where did I say that the vast majority of people who are rich inherited it? I don't think I have ever said that in any post anywhere. Maybe you're getting me mixed up with what you read in someone else's posts.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  5. #165
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    ..and now explain Greece to us.

    The answer to the question your post os begging is nto answered by throwing out an example or two, it's answered by looking at what normally happens. That means that the more socialized a nation becomes, the less prosperous it ends up. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are FAR out weighed by the rest.
    Problem is, you look at Greece and assume that if it happens to Greece, it's automatically going to happen to all socialized democracies. Gotta be careful using those broad-brush assumptions, guy.

    If you've read my posts, you know that I'm a big fan of what I call the 'Goldilocks' way - neither too much, nor too little - in almost everything. This includes capitalism and socialism - neither too much nor too little of both. Greece, on the other hand, did have waaaaay too much socialism, just as many third-world nations have way too much unregulated capitalism (yes, many do). If we have too much socialism like Greece did (and does), our economy will melt down. If we have too much unregulated capitalism, our income inequality will go the way of the worst of the third-world nations and the middle class will shrink to irrelevance. Gotta have both...but in balance. Always look for the balance.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  6. #166
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    Answer: Thirst for power. All governments are self promoting agencies. Democracies need consent, so governments led by arrogant and narcissistic men / women with huge egos promise benefits to gain consent for the power and adoration they seek.
    Hate to tell you this, guy, but those who are arrogant/narcissistic/egoistic and have a thirst for power are found in ALL forms of government. The difference between democracies and non-democracies is that we CAN vote them out.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  7. #167
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    It's your thread. The burden of proof is on you.
    Ah. I violated mpg's rules of posting threads because I asked a question (that conservatives have a really hard time answering).
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  8. #168
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Problem is, you look at Greece and assume that if it happens to Greece, it's automatically going to happen to all socialized democracies. Gotta be careful using those broad-brush assumptions, guy.

    If you've read my posts, you know that I'm a big fan of what I call the 'Goldilocks' way - neither too much, nor too little - in almost everything. This includes capitalism and socialism - neither too much nor too little of both. Greece, on the other hand, did have waaaaay too much socialism, just as many third-world nations have way too much unregulated capitalism (yes, many do). If we have too much socialism like Greece did (and does), our economy will melt down. If we have too much unregulated capitalism, our income inequality will go the way of the worst of the third-world nations and the middle class will shrink to irrelevance. Gotta have both...but in balance. Always look for the balance.
    I made no assumptions, I just asked for an explanation. If you can use one nation as proof of your perspective, then shouldn't I get the same courtesy??

    I agree with your statement about balance, but where do we draw that line?? the problem with socialism is that looks good on a short term basis and over the long term is incredibly destructive. Our current state of welfare is classic example of how a socialistic policy can go from what should have been a small scale application of socialistic policies to one that is threatening the economic stability of this nation. This is why ANY socialistic policy MUST have a very strict limit on it from the get-go. I'd like to see welfare "constitutionalized" with changes to it only happening by way of an amendment and not by way of bureaucratic policies.
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

  9. #169
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    Where do you draw the line between big government and small government? Most people consider the US's taxes and spending to be low.
    That's true with personal taxes, but not so much with corporate taxes (though many corporations find ways to avoid paying those taxes).

    But to give you your due, you asked a pertinent question - where does one draw the line? I'd have to say that when almost all government workers are paid middle-class wages, it's almost certainly a 'big government'...whereas those governments that can only pay their workers poverty-level wages are small governments. In order for a government to pay middle-class wages, that government has to have enough tax revenue to do so...and as a direct result, the people who work within that government, since they do not need to rely on bribes in order to feed their families, are mostly honest brokers and cannot be easily bribed. YES, some will be dishonest, some will be bribed, but the vast majority won't be.

    What follows is that when the well-paid government workers do their jobs, they tend to do it well...which means that those assigned to regulatory agencies are (usually) going to do their jobs properly and hold the corporate sector to what the regulations require. Thus you have the high effective taxes and strong regulation that are part of Big Government...and in such governments throughout the world, the corruption level is relatively low.

    And this goes back to what I've said so many times - high taxes are the price of admission to living in a first-world democracy.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  10. #170
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    My guess is that for a nation to be economically successful, it must be stable and integrated. And in order to get a stable, integrated society, you simply need a certain minimum of social safety nets and/or policies that make sure inequality doesn't grow beyond a certain level.

    When inequality gets too big, there is no solidarity between the citizens anymore, they no longer identify with their country and society breaks apart into different factions. You then either get social unrest even to the point of civil war, or you choose an authoritarian government that keeps society together by force and coercion.

    But when there is not enough solidarity, there is not enough trust. And without trust, you cannot run a successful economy.
    Well said!
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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