View Poll Results: Why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

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  • It's just a coincidence, an accident of economics.

    1 0.74%
  • These are just lies fed to us by the liberal media!

    3 2.21%
  • Yes, certain socialized programs DO benefit a democracy's economic health.

    132 97.06%
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Thread: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

  1. #101
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    I do not need to live in a third world nation to tell you that they are not economically free, just as I didn't need to live in the USSR to tell you it wasn't economically free.
    Did I refer to the USSR? No? Then please don't include a strawman argument. I'm referring to the third-world nations of today, many of which ARE democracies.

    What a nice story. Fact is, you don't have to live somewhere to know what policies are in place, and whether those policies advance or inhibit economic freedom.
    And do you know how those policies are enforced, IF they are enforced at all? For instance, drug laws in the Philippines are very strict...but I paid off the judge and my brother-in-law got out of jail. This is business as usual there. The duties on incoming household goods is 100% for new items...but it was a heck of a lot cheaper to pay off the customs agent. Minimum wage there is a bit over $2 a day...but nobody pays attention to it - it's never, ever enforced.

    If someone is employed for more than six months, the company's required to provide health insurance...which is why most low-level workers at major companies are fired at the six month point and then rehired - and much of the time, this happens without the worker even realizing that it has happened. For smaller companies, they don't even worry about it at all.

    That's just it, guy - you've NO CLUE. You CANNOT know what 'economic freedom' a nation has if you haven't been there, because the laws on the books often bear ZERO relation to what's actually happening out on the street.

    And I already gave you an answer, which you ignored. To reiterate: "For free markets to exist there has to be a strong protection of property rights. That is nonexistent in third-world nations."
    Ah. You really think we have strong property rights in America? Ever hear of "eminent domain"? Or the RICO act? And - my pet peeve - HOA's, which can legally force you out of your home if you don't follow their rules to the letter? All you have to do is to piss off the most influential guy in the HOA and suddenly they start pinging you for not having everything in accordance to what the HOA rules are. And yes, I have pissed off that "most influential guy in the HOA" before, and all of a sudden I had to remove a fence I'd put up to keep my dog safe and secure.

    On the other hand, I can do pretty much what I want, when I want, and how I want with my house in the Philippines.

    But you're going to tell me how our property rights are so strong here? Please.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  2. #102
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    Glen Contrarian's Avatar
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    .. you only prove my point. At that time Germany was a serious economic power in the world, giving the m the financial ability to provide the services you pointed out (which are small-scale socialism, not the large scale Socialism that you seem to want to equate them to).
    And you completely missed my point - Germany had such a program from the beginning, even through the years of the Weimar Republic and through the Nazi years, through the Cold War, and still has it today now that they've absorbed the poverty-ridden eastern half after the Soviet Union melted down, and became the most powerful economy in Europe.

    And they did it all while having those socialist programs you decry so much.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  3. #103
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    the founders created a republican form of government were power in separated into 3 parts [power the ability to pass laws], democracy has power in only 1 part.

    it is easy to buy and control the 1, instead of trying to buy and control the 3, because each of the 3 in not concerned and about the interest of the others, they are concerned about they interest, so for any law to be passed and signed into law, all 3 must agree to create laws which in the the interest of each other.

    because there are 3 sources of power, factions combinations cannot buy and control government.....

    good governments are government, that do little for the people and have maximum liberty, the more government does for the people the more it controls them, governments that use force on the people, fail in the end.
    So...why, then, are the nations with the highest standards of living ALL the ones with the kind of government you despise i.e. big government that does so much for the people?
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  4. #104
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Did I say that we need to have radically higher taxes? Well, actually, when it comes to the very wealthy, we DO need higher taxes. I don't remember a single one of them going to the soup lines back in the 1950's when their tax rates were 90%. This isn't to say that they'll actually pay higher taxes - they'd just reinvest the vast majority of their profits back into growing their business like they did in the 1950's, thereby avoiding paying the taxes but also growing their businesses...which is good for everybody all the way down to the lowest-level workers.

    That said, we don't need radically higher taxes for everyone or a government that's radically bigger than what it is. What we do need is a population that realizes that properly funding schools is NOT a waste of taxpayer money, that properly funding bridge maintenance and repair is NOT a waste of taxpayer money, that ensuring that everyone has access to quality health insurance and health care DOES pay greater dividends down the road than what it would cost now.

    If you want to live in a first-world nation, then you MUST be willing to do your share to pay for what's required for that nation to maintain its first-world status: top-quality schools, good roads and bridges, regulatory agencies to keep the communities orderly and to keep corruption in check, access to health insurance and health care to keep the population relatively healthy.

    Is this really such a terrible thing to consider?
    its so easy to sit back and demand others pay more taxes



  5. #105
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    So...why, then, are the nations with the highest standards of living ALL the ones with the kind of government you despise i.e. big government that does so much for the people?
    highest standards of living?.........ever try to get an apartment in paris, a dark dank 800 sq feet for $1700 dollars a month.

    who drives big fancy cars lives in huge houses in Europe, only the rich, you need to take a moment of time and watch HGTV'S HOUSE HUNTERS INTENTIONAL, and see what the common man lives in.

    ever heard of Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the man who got into trouble in NY over rapes charges, ..he was already slated to be the next president of france before that happened, he's a socialist, yet, he has money and power, and houses around the world.

    i have lived in Europe for several years, its nice and many pretty places to go and see, but never would i think that they are better off then the american people.....because they are not after seeing both sides to compare....but i will say that america is slipping farther back because of our government being more and more controlled, by those with wealth/ power and want government control their way....which is what democratic forms of government DO!

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31318120
    Last edited by Master PO; 02-11-15 at 04:49 PM.

  6. #106
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    No. I proposed that the people you knew weren't socialists, based on your misrepresentation of socialism (no doubt due to their misrepresentations of socialism) not due to assuming I had intimate knowledge of your social circle. Of course I accused you of condescension, you claimed that socialists (in the broad sense, I.E millions of people) didn't know their own ideology.
    Not at all. I claimed that, when faced with socialisms many, deep failures, socialists will attempt the No True Socialism fallacy as a debate tactic, but when attempting to claim widespread support and/or success, they will instead define "socialism" very broadly. I accused them of being inconsistent in debate, which they are.

  7. #107
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Not at all. I claimed that, when faced with socialisms many, deep failures, socialists will attempt the No True Socialism fallacy as a debate tactic, but when attempting to claim widespread support and/or success, they will instead define "socialism" very broadly. I accused them of being inconsistent in debate, which they are.
    Factually, however, there are few to no pure any form of government in the world today. Most have figured out that pure forms have more problems than mixed forms.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  8. #108
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Factually, however, there are few to no pure any form of government in the world today. Most have figured out that pure forms have more problems than mixed forms.
    of all the governments of the world most are controlled by oligarchies.

  9. #109
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Ah. Yet another person who refuses to give a leader credit for what happens on his watch. That's how it is, isn't it? If something happens that you like, then give the leader credit...but if it's something that goes against what you personally want to hear, never, ever give that leader credit for it, huh?

    In the Navy, if a ship runs aground at zero-dark-thirty while the captain's in his bunk snoring away, at the court-martial he will say that he was personally on watch at the conn even though he was asleep in his bunk, and he will be held accountable as if he were the one personally at the conn.

    Why is this? Because he was the one responsible for making doggone sure that his subordinates, from his executive officer (second-in-command) all the way down to the newest recruit on board are all properly trained and supervised and disciplined...and if he had made sure that they were all properly trained and supervised and disciplined, then the ship would never have run aground to begin with.

    And so it goes in government - it is the leader's responsibility to make sure that everyone under him is properly trained, supervised, and disciplined...and if they are, the nation almost always prospers. If not, then it soon becomes corrupt and much less effective.

    That's why the president is sometimes called the head (or the captain) of the ship of state. The metaphor fits better than you might think.
    Just because something happens while a particular person is in power doesn't mean that person in power deserves credit or blame. Your argument is one big fallacy from the start.

    Second, Hitler's leadership did not cause Germany to prosper. It did, however, result in the death of millions of Jews, disabled people, and gay men and women.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

  10. #110
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    Re: So...why are all first-world democracies, socialized democracies?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    its so easy to sit back and demand others pay more taxes
    Yeah, those millionaires would be driven to the poorhouse, wouldn't they? They'd be standing in soup lines, just like they never did in the 1950's when their tax rate was over twice what it is now.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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