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Thread: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

  1. #81
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    Re: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    You are welcome to interpret the post in anyway you choose. However it may take reading again if interested to know what was really meant.
    No thanks, twice was sufficient.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Of course Dave. It's all the West's fault and none of it is Putin's right?
    Oh stop pouting, it isn't all or nothing. Clearly you have the ability to blame Putin, just accept responsibility for Western intrigue now and balance this out.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    And I suppose that Russian TV isn't propaganda hmm?
    Propaganda can be found everywhere. The broad brush approach fails though. Nobody tells the truth 100% of the time and nobody lies 100% of the time. If rt=propaganda to you! then you'll never progress.

    As our SoS testified before congress. The US media is basically useless, not because it's ALL propaganda, but because its puff, and lacking substance. In contrast she upheld international news, Al Jazeera, Press, rt etc, as being informative and as winning the information war.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  4. #84
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    Re: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Propaganda can be found everywhere. The broad brush approach fails though. Nobody tells the truth 100% of the time and nobody lies 100% of the time. If rt=propaganda to you! then you'll never progress.

    As our SoS testified before congress. The US media is basically useless, not because it's ALL propaganda, but because its puff, and lacking substance. In contrast she upheld international news, Al Jazeera, Press, rt etc, as being informative and as winning the information war.
    So we just going to to ignore that woman (or I guess it's women* at this point) who left the RT because of all the interference from Moscow? And heaven forbid if we are really wanting to consider the Islamist mouthpiece of Al Jazeera as "credible" either. I put as much trust in them as I do Goebels propaganda addresses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Oh stop pouting, it isn't all or nothing. Clearly you have the ability to blame Putin, just accept responsibility for Western intrigue now and balance this out.
    I will not. Mainly because it's so preposterous the idea that hundreds of thousands would take to the streets, a few them putting their lives on the lines in the process, for a couple of bankers. If you're assertion is that the West used this opportunity to drive a wedge between those in Kiev who supported closer ties with the West and those in the East that are still in love with Mother Russia, then fine, I can roll with that. Beyond that, it's all ridiculousness.
    Last edited by Hamster Buddha; 02-13-15 at 01:11 PM.

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    Re: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    So we just going to to ignore that woman (or I guess it's women* at this point) who left the RT because of all the interference from Moscow? And heaven forbid if we are really wanting to consider the Islamist mouthpiece of Al Jazeera as "credible" either. I put as much trust in them as I do Goebels propaganda addresses.



    I will not. Mainly because it's so preposterous the idea that hundreds of thousands would take to the streets, a few them putting their lives on the lines in the process, for a couple of bankers. If you're assertion is that the West used this opportunity to drive a wedge between those in Kiev who supported closer ties with the West and those in the East that are still in love with Mother Russia, then fine, I can roll with that. Beyond that, it's all ridiculousness.
    That is all I'm asserting. I don't believe I've ever begrudged the fact that the mob at Maiden Square was disgruntled with Yanukovych and his decision to do business with Russia instead of the EU. I don't think for one moment that they were doing anything for a couple of bankers or an entire banking system either. What I have done is condemn the US/EU and all those at DP that have supported the violent overthrow of an elected government, the burning of government buildings and firing upon the president as he fled in his motorcade. That's not the way democracy works and neither you or anybody else would accept, let alone support the same thing happening here. There could have easily been a band of half a million pissed off Americans that could have stormed DC, burned out federal buildings and driven Bush from the WH shooting at his security detail as they attempted to evacuate him from the situation, and it would have been just as wrong as what we saw in Kiev. It's hatred of Russia that's driving this hypocrisy.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    No thanks, twice was sufficient.
    Yet it the intended meaning was missed, even when read twice.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

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    Re: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    That is all I'm asserting. I don't believe I've ever begrudged the fact that the mob at Maiden Square was disgruntled with Yanukovych and his decision to do business with Russia instead of the EU. I don't think for one moment that they were doing anything for a couple of bankers or an entire banking system either. What I have done is condemn the US/EU and all those at DP that have supported the violent overthrow of an elected government, the burning of government buildings and firing upon the president as he fled in his motorcade. That's not the way democracy works and neither you or anybody else would accept, let alone support the same thing happening here. There could have easily been a band of half a million pissed off Americans that could have stormed DC, burned out federal buildings and driven Bush from the WH shooting at his security detail as they attempted to evacuate him from the situation, and it would have been just as wrong as what we saw in Kiev. It's hatred of Russia that's driving this hypocrisy.
    I can respect that in a democracy, there are some things that shouldn't be done I really do. And honestly, I don't hate Russia. In truth, if you would of asked me a few years ago, I'd of taken up with Russia over aligning myself with the ****ing French. One my favorite novel series has Russia allying with the US if you can believe that. It's because that Russia has a fierce independent streak, and they won't let anyone force them into doing something they don't want. I like that. It's American after all to buck the system.

    However, this is the same Russia that in the past several years have now invaded two sovereign countries and unlike the US, they don't have the intention of handing them back... at least not free and clear. Add on top of that who is leading Russia right now, an ex-KGB spymaster that seems to want to hold onto power until the day he dies, who incidentally called the fall of the Soviet Union the greatest tragedy of the 20th Century. Like it or not, Russia isn't exactly doing themselves any favor. And we all know what happens to dissidents and others who oppose Putin's regime inside Russia and isn't pretty. In fact, more and more, I'm having a hard time seeing a difference between Russia and the old Soviet Union. That's why people "hate" Russia nowadays is because in truth, this isn't Yeltsin's Russia or even Gorbachev's Russia any more.

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    Re: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    I can respect that in a democracy, there are some things that shouldn't be done I really do. And honestly, I don't hate Russia. In truth, if you would of asked me a few years ago, I'd of taken up with Russia over aligning myself with the ****ing French. One my favorite novel series has Russia allying with the US if you can believe that. It's because that Russia has a fierce independent streak, and they won't let anyone force them into doing something they don't want. I like that. It's American after all to buck the system.

    However, this is the same Russia that in the past several years have now invaded two sovereign countries and unlike the US, they don't have the intention of handing them back... at least not free and clear. Add on top of that who is leading Russia right now, an ex-KGB spymaster that seems to want to hold onto power until the day he dies, who incidentally called the fall of the Soviet Union the greatest tragedy of the 20th Century. Like it or not, Russia isn't exactly doing themselves any favor. And we all know what happens to dissidents and others who oppose Putin's regime inside Russia and isn't pretty. In fact, more and more, I'm having a hard time seeing a difference between Russia and the old Soviet Union. That's why people "hate" Russia nowadays is because in truth, this isn't Yeltsin's Russia or even Gorbachev's Russia any more.
    KGB/CIA, are you at all familiar with the list of atrocities conducted by the CIA in Latin America (not to mention so many other places about the world) some of which occurred during GHW Bush's tenure. And he was rewarded with the presidency. What about the ill gotten gaines his grandfather had confiscated from him under the Trading With The Enemies Act, during WW2, or what about GWBush's war in Iraq that wasted nearly a trillion dollars, cost the lives of 4,500 US servicemen/women and the lives of 2-300,000 Iraqi civilians, all based upon massaged intelligence to fit a policy conceived of by Bush and others, prior to 9/11. Here's the point HB, and I think you'll understand this, when we point that foreign policy finger at Russia or China or name your country, there's three pointing back. the US has very little credibility in this regard, and really, condemnation of Putin needs to come from countries and leaders and people's who haven't the history of imperialism, hedgmony, exploitation and therefore, hypocrisy of the US.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  9. #89
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    Re: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    KGB/CIA, are you at all familiar with the list of atrocities conducted by the CIA in Latin America (not to mention so many other places about the world) some of which occurred during GHW Bush's tenure. And he was rewarded with the presidency. What about the ill gotten gaines his grandfather had confiscated from him under the Trading With The Enemies Act, during WW2, or what about GWBush's war in Iraq that wasted nearly a trillion dollars, cost the lives of 4,500 US servicemen/women and the lives of 2-300,000 Iraqi civilians, all based upon massaged intelligence to fit a policy conceived of by Bush and others, prior to 9/11. Here's the point HB, and I think you'll understand this, when we point that foreign policy finger at Russia or China or name your country, there's three pointing back. the US has very little credibility in this regard, and really, condemnation of Putin needs to come from countries and leaders and people's who haven't the history of imperialism, hedgmony, exploitation and therefore, hypocrisy of the US.
    I'm honestly not as familiar with Latin America as I should be, except for knowing that the Soviet Union was spreading communism (largely through proxies in the region such as Cuba which was why they got onto the list of State Sponsored terrorist) in the region. It's only natural that the US wasn't going to allow the spread of such beliefs here, and we need look no further to look at the Cuban Missile Crisis to know how far we're willing to go to enforce the Monroe Doctrine, that for two hundreds years prevented foreign powers from messing with the internal affairs of the Western Hemisphere.

    And then you bring up Iraq. Let me ask you something, do you honestly expect Russia to hand over the reigns to territories Russia has taken in the past few years as the US did with Iraq? Like it or not, when we left Iraq, they were free to do whatever the hell they wanted, which incidentally has bitten us in the ass and why to this day I'd rather have an enemy in Saddam than supposed "allies" we have now. After all, have you seen how close they've become with Iran? Do you think Russia is going to let either the Crimea, Georgia, or whatever happens with Eastern Ukraine get that buddy buddy with their strategic adversaries?

  10. #90
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    Re: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    I'm honestly not as familiar with Latin America as I should be, except for knowing that the Soviet Union was spreading communism (largely through proxies in the region such as Cuba which was why they got onto the list of State Sponsored terrorist) in the region. It's only natural that the US wasn't going to allow the spread of such beliefs here, and we need look no further to look at the Cuban Missile Crisis to know how far we're willing to go to enforce the Monroe Doctrine, that for two hundreds years prevented foreign powers from messing with the internal affairs of the Western Hemisphere.

    And then you bring up Iraq. Let me ask you something, do you honestly expect Russia to hand over the reigns to territories Russia has taken in the past few years as the US did with Iraq? Like it or not, when we left Iraq, they were free to do whatever the hell they wanted, which incidentally has bitten us in the ass and why to this day I'd rather have an enemy in Saddam than supposed "allies" we have now. After all, have you seen how close they've become with Iran? Do you think Russia is going to let either the Crimea, Georgia, or whatever happens with Eastern Ukraine get that buddy buddy with their strategic adversaries?
    Come on Buddha. You admit to not knowing much about the CIA's atrocities in Latin America, and then defend them upon the propaganda that you've heard espoused in American media or some patronising poster at DP.

    Here's just one of many examples of US policy that has been brutal on weak people in the world that have no leverage to defend themselves, in order to advance the economic interests of American oligarchs. I really do have faith that you're interested in truth and justice, just reach out and grab it.


    The Guatemalan Revolution of 1944-54 had overthrown the US backed dictator Jorge Ubico and brought a democratically elected government to power. The government began an ambitious agrarian reform program attempting to grant land to millions of landless peasants. This program threatened the land holdings of the United Fruit Company, who lobbied for a coup by portraying these reforms as communist. The CIA engineered the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Jacobo Árbenz, and installed the military dictator Carlos Castillo Armas. A decades long civil war ensued in which some 200,000 people were killed, mostly by the US backed military.[21][22][23][24][25]

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cover...change_actions

    So here you have a country in which its citizens were suffering under the oppression of a dictator, a dictator that the US supported! In an attempt at desperation they overthrow the dictator and install for themselves a democracy, and a government that has their interests at heart and will divide land in an equitable fashion so that all its citizens can make a living and thrive. Viewed as a threat to the UFC, a conspiracy is hatched and the US government is lobbied to demonise the peasants as communist sympathiser, and you know how Americans get catatonic when they hear that word. So the CIA was tasked with the job of overthrowing this democratically elected government and another right wing dictator was installed who subsequently beat the citizenry into submission by killing 200,000 of them, which allowed UFC to then continue the exploitation of the Guatemalan peasants.

    STOP, patronising America by thinking everything that's done is good, supports democracy and looks after the little guy or praises self determination. It isn't always so!!!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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