View Poll Results: Is Investigative Reporter Parry's narrative accurate?

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Thread: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

  1. #31
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    Re: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I know there are people that believed that. There are fewer now and the resistance to stationing major Nato units in the Eastern European member countries is crumbling. That is what would have been required in Ukraine before the "Trade" Treaty with the EU was forced through. But without forces in those countries ie the way it was, Russia could repeat its game.
    Again, if they try that with NATO countries, the gloves would be off and they would be defeated. Russia cannot compete with conventional U.S. military power. No one else can for that matter.

  2. #32
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    Re: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Again, if they try that with NATO countries, the gloves would be off and they would be defeated. Russia cannot compete with conventional U.S. military power. No one else can for that matter.
    This would certainly be the case, if there were a full and open attack. In the case of Crimea or Eastern Ukraine there was no full and open attack. There was a blame game and nothing more. Or do you really think that Germany would support sending Troops into Latvia to beat down a minority at arms against its own government? Would you support the US doing so? That was how we got into Vietnam. Slip slide and you are there.

  3. #33
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    Re: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    This would certainly be the case, if there were a full and open attack. In the case of Crimea or Eastern Ukraine there was no full and open attack. There was a blame game and nothing more. Or do you really think that Germany would support sending Troops into Latvia to beat down a minority at arms against its own government? Would you support the US doing so? That was how we got into Vietnam. Slip slide and you are there.
    We are committed to the defense of NATO countries. We need to honor those commitments. If our interests are better served by not honoring those commitments, we need to get out of them ASAP.

  4. #34
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    Re: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleming View Post
    Not so. The Baltic countries, Poland, etc. are in NATO. Ukraine is not. There is a reason for that.
    Indeed. At independence in 1991, Ukraine declared itself to be a militarily non-aligned and neutral country. Ukraine also voluntarily relinquished its nuclear weapons, which at the time constituted the worlds third largest nuclear weapons stockpile. Ukraine transferred the Soviet nuclear weapons on its territory to the new Russian Federation and ratified the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT). As a result of the aforementioned, Russia, the United States, and Great Britain signed the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances with Ukraine. With their signature, these nuclear nations pledged to respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the neutral/NPT Ukraine. Russia unilaterally violated the Budapest Memorandum in early 2014 and this violation continues today.


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    Re: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    We are committed to the defense of NATO countries. We need to honor those commitments. If our interests are better served by not honoring those commitments, we need to get out of them ASAP.
    That was not the point. The point is that the land grab would be hidden in a freedom movement of a large minority trying to protect itself like in Crimea or Eastern Ukraine or in Georgia. Or would you attack Russia because freedom fighters were fighting their government.

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    Re: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    That was not the point. The point is that the land grab would be hidden in a freedom movement of a large minority trying to protect itself like in Crimea or Eastern Ukraine or in Georgia. Or would you attack Russia because freedom fighters were fighting their government.
    Your hypothetical is to vague for me to try to comment on. I would need more details and more context. All I can say is that we are committed to the defense of NATO countries and that we need to honor those commitments. If we cannot do so realistically, then we need to get out of those commitments.

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    Re: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    That was not the point. The point is that the land grab would be hidden in a freedom movement of a large minority trying to protect itself like in Crimea or Eastern Ukraine or in Georgia. Or would you attack Russia because freedom fighters were fighting their government.
    Indeed. Latvia for example. A NATO nation. It shares a border with the Russian Federation. Latvia's current population is ~25% ethnic Russian, a vestige from when Latvia was a Soviet SSR. As in Crimea and eastern Ukraine, it would be very easy for Putin to stir up trouble in Latvia and then threaten military action to "protect ethnic Russians, Russian-speakers, and compatriots" if the Latvian government tried to quell such subversion.


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    Re: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Your hypothetical is to vague for me to try to comment on. I would need more details and more context. All I can say is that we are committed to the defense of NATO countries and that we need to honor those commitments. If we cannot do so realistically, then we need to get out of those commitments.
    Vague? Didn't you watch how Ukraine developed? How real world do you need it? I mean, this is basic level power politics from the textbook.

  9. #39
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    Re: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Your hypothetical is to vague for me to try to comment on. I would need more details and more context. All I can say is that we are committed to the defense of NATO countries and that we need to honor those commitments. If we cannot do so realistically, then we need to get out of those commitments.
    It wouldn't be the first time Putin made a military move to protect ethnic Russians.

  10. #40
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    Re: Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Vague? Didn't you watch how Ukraine developed? How real world do you need it? I mean, this is basic level power politics from the textbook.
    Yes vauge. Ukraine has context. If you want to ask a specific question about Ukraine, I can answer it.

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