View Poll Results: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

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    348 90.63%
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Thread: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

  1. #41
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    Re: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Well it is said that George Bush said that God told him to invade Iraq.


    "It is said"?? You seriously want me to take that seriously?


    Not only that but recent history we have had Christians doing all sorts of things in the name of religion. It's not that uncommon. Look at what happened in Waco. Look at what happened with Jim Jones.
    Waco was a mistake on the part of the government, and the Branch Davidians were not Christian. Jim Jones didn't engage in global terrorism, he founded a cult and convinced them he was God's right hand and they should suicide for him.


    Not the same thing. Please enumerate where Christians have beheaded, burned to death, or blown up people in job lots like Islamic terrorists have, within this century. You can't.... there are only two comparable incidents, the OKC bombing and the abortion clinic bombing. The former was retaliation for the government's blunders at Waco, and the perp in the latter case is not a Christian (having said in letters available online that he "preferred Nietzsche to the Bible", something no true Christian would avow).




    What about Mormons who believe in polygamy? Are we going to go after Christians in general because of that? Are we going to go after Mormons and tell them take polygamy out of their ideology?
    In no way comparable to supporting global terrorism, or jihad or the Caliphate.



    Another thing, the vast majority of Muslims are not beheading people.
    Yet some recent polls show an enormous amount of support for such things among many Muslim populations.



    But that aside, let's look at it from this perspective. What would you do if Christians started doing those things? Would we then say we are going to ban Christians from teaching about things like a final war where non-believers will be destroyed?

    Christians are NOT doing "such things". That's the point. Let's keep the focus on who ACTUALLY IS doing these things.

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  2. #42
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    Re: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Some appear to feel that the U.S. government has the right to single out Islam and say specifically what it can and cannot teach. Should the government be allowed to single out a specific religion in this way?
    Could you provide a little more detail? What are they trying to dictate?
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  3. #43
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    Re: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    "It is said"?? You seriously want me to take that seriously?
    That is what has been said. Do you think I made it up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Waco was a mistake on the part of the government, and the Branch Davidians were not Christian.
    The government did indeed make mistakes but you are dead wrong about the other part. The Branch Davidians did indeed CLAIM to be Christians.

    From its inception in 1930, the reform movement believed themselves to be living in a time when Bible prophecies of a final divine judgment were coming to pass as a prelude to Christ's second coming. The name "Branch Davidian" is most widely known for the Waco siege of 1993 on their property (known as the Mount Carmel Center) near Waco, Texas. The 51-day siege, by the ATF, FBI, and Texas National Guard, resulted in the deaths of the Branch Davidians' leader, David Koresh, as well as 82 other Branch Davidian men, women, and children, and four ATF agents
    Branch Davidians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Jim Jones didn't engage in global terrorism, he founded a cult and convinced them he was God's right hand and they should suicide for him.
    Jim Jones was a fanatic whose teachings where based, in part on the Apocalypse. Again like the Branch Davidians, violence that is in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Not the same thing. Please enumerate where Christians have beheaded, burned to death, or blown up people in job lots like Islamic terrorists have, within this century. You can't.... there are only two comparable incidents, the OKC bombing and the abortion clinic bombing. The former was retaliation for the government's blunders at Waco, and the perp in the latter case is not a Christian (having said in letters available online that he "preferred Nietzsche to the Bible", something no true Christian would avow).
    They are not the same thing but they are based on ideology formed on the basis of the Bible. The thing is this, there are quite a few Christians who believe that our wars have been justified because of the will of God. One only need to look to the example of Boykin to see this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    In no way comparable to supporting global terrorism, or jihad or the Caliphate.
    One could make the case that it is a form of terrorism against women and as the government should demand that Mormons stop teaching it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Yet some recent polls show an enormous amount of support for such things among many Muslim populations.
    Before I comment, show me the poll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Christians are NOT doing "such things". That's the point. Let's keep the focus on who ACTUALLY IS doing these things.
    The problem with your position is that freedom of religion is a matter of constitutional law. As such, the issue of precedent comes into play. The danger is that once we start targeting one religion on the basis of ideology, we can do it to all of them. Therefore it is most certainly appropriate to keep the focus not on religious ideology, but behavior of groups and individuals.

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    Re: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Could you provide a little more detail? What are they trying to dictate?
    I have given the example of Lt. General Dooley earlier in the thread. Should I repost it, or do you think it is irrelevant?

  5. #45
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    Re: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I have given the example of Lt. General Dooley earlier in the thread. Should I repost it, or do you think it is irrelevant?
    I caught that after I posted. Sorry about that.

    If I could offer a suggestion, though. A little more detail in your first post would make things easier. A suggestion that I need to remind myself of, at times, btw.

    Sometimes I purposely leave out some detail as I want to elicit honest responses, but sometimes that backfires on me and I don't give enough.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  6. #46
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    Re: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    That is what has been said. Do you think I made it up?

    No, but "it is said" is hardly proof of anything. It's known as "heresay".







    Before I comment, show me the poll.

    It's been posted here on DP at least twice in the last couple months. I think it is a Pew poll.



    The problem with your position is that freedom of religion is a matter of constitutional law. As such, the issue of precedent comes into play. The danger is that once we start targeting one religion on the basis of ideology, we can do it to all of them. Therefore it is most certainly appropriate to keep the focus not on religious ideology, but behavior of groups and individuals.

    You don't know what my position is, obviously. I never said anything about targeting Islam, I said it is illegal to incite/support actual violence regardless of who does it, and I said that it is Islam who is doing this in this century, and these are both factual statements.

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  7. #47
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    Re: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    I caught that after I posted. Sorry about that.

    If I could offer a suggestion, though. A little more detail in your first post would make things easier. A suggestion that I need to remind myself of, at times, btw.

    Sometimes I purposely leave out some detail as I want to elicit honest responses, but sometimes that backfires on me and I don't give enough.
    Yeah, I noticed I have a tendency to do that. I'll try to do better. Thanks for pointing that out.

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    Re: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    It's been posted here on DP at least twice in the last couple months. I think it is a Pew poll.
    I did not see it, so I am not going to try to comment on something I have not seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    You don't know what my position is, obviously. I never said anything about targeting Islam, I said it is illegal to incite/support actual violence regardless of who does it, and I said that it is Islam who is doing this in this century, and these are both factual statements.
    OK, but you seemed to have a problem with my contention that we should not target specific religions based on ideology. If you agree with that, then we don't have a disagreement.

  9. #49
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    Re: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I did not see it, so I am not going to try to comment on something I have not seen.



    OK, but you seemed to have a problem with my contention that we should not target specific religions based on ideology. If you agree with that, then we don't have a disagreement.

    I have no problem "targeting" any organization that is engaged in the ACTUAL incitement and support of unlawful violence against my fellow citizens, if by "targeting" you mean keeping an eye on and arresting those engaged in illegal behavior. At present, that problem is found with Wahhabi and Sunni Islam chiefly.

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    Re: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I have no problem "targeting" any organization that is engaged in the ACTUAL incitement and support of unlawful violence against my fellow citizens, if by "targeting" you mean keeping an eye on and arresting those engaged in illegal behavior.
    Absolutely. That is my point, we should target individuals and the organizations that are actually doing it, not the religion itself and Dooley appeared to want to do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    At present, that problem is found with Wahhabi and Sunni Islam chiefly.
    And those are not organizations, the are branches of a religion based on ideology. Therefore we should not target individuals or organizations simply because they are Sunni for example. Now if you think we should, that is were I have a disagreement.
    Last edited by MildSteel; 02-08-15 at 01:49 PM.

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