View Poll Results: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

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Thread: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

  1. #21
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    Re: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    It would appear that Dooley said the following: "that radical “true Islam” is both a political and military enemy to free people throughout the world."

    Based on what I have heard and seen on videos from radical "true Islam" followers, his claim is 100% accurate.

    I don't know what it takes to pass over and ignore "radical" in his statement, but it would seem you have it in abundance.
    Why are you ignoring this

    In exploring Islam’s own stated doctrine, its own stated laws, and its own stated goals for the world, it is clear that Islam remains an ideology and system of governance that demands the extermination of anyone who does not subscribe to each and every one of its tenants.
    This is a clear reference to Islam itself.

  2. #22
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    Re: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    No, but some are suggesting that Islam specifically be singled out.

    Again, consider Matthew Dooley

    US military course taught officers 'Islam is the enemy' | US news | The Guardian
    Having read the link he says that the was is one of ideology and philosophy, not just religion. I agree with that premise. I think that to single out Islam in the US. is a much different and unacceptable stance than singling out islam in theocratic or jihadist states. I wouldn't conflate the jurisdictions.
    "It is only when men contemplate the greatness of God that they can come to realize their own inadequacy." Jean Calvin

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    Re: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    Having read the link he says that the was is one of ideology and philosophy, not just religion.
    Yes but the point is that he singling out a religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    I agree with that premise.
    I disagree in strongest terms. We should not single out a single religion. It should be applied in general. Otherwise we are in the business of going after people on SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THEIR RELIGION, NOT BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY DO.

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    I think that to single out Islam in the US. is a much different and unacceptable stance than singling out islam in theocratic or jihadist states. I wouldn't conflate the jurisdictions.
    I disagree and I don't think you can do one without doing the other.

  4. #24
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    Re: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Why are you ignoring this



    This is a clear reference to Islam itself.
    Again, I don't know what it takes to pass over and ignore "radical" in his statement, but you're going further to prove you have it in abundance.

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    Re: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Yes but the point is that he singling out a religion.



    I disagree in strongest terms. We should not single out a single religion. It should be applied in general. Otherwise we are in the business of going after people on SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THEIR RELIGION, NOT BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY DO.



    I disagree and I don't think you can do one without doing the other.
    Sure you can, especially if you believe that the jihadists are not true to Islam. If you believe the west has a mild version of Islam that does not promote Jihad, why not separate and discriminate between the two? This ensures that the distinction is one of behavior and ideology and not just religious affiliation. Just to restate the obvious, we don't single out any religion, we single out the behavior and ideology. If murderous behavior and dangerous ideology resides within a religion should we "let it go", not to be accused of religious discrimination?

    How about a brief mental exercise? If you could ask every member of ISIS or Al-qaeda, would they say the are fighting in the name of Islam? If so they have singled out their own religion for scrutiny via their BEHAVIOR, not us. Let's make that distinction and call it out.
    "It is only when men contemplate the greatness of God that they can come to realize their own inadequacy." Jean Calvin

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    Re: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Again, I don't know what it takes to pass over and ignore "radical" in his statement, but you're going further to prove you have it in abundance.
    I didn't ignore it. You ignored that part that I posted where he is clearly referring to Islam in general.

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    Re: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I didn't ignore it. You ignored that part that I posted where he is clearly referring to Islam in general.
    He qualified his statement in the next sentence, a fact you are trying to ignore. Enough said.

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    Re: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    Sure you can, especially if you believe that the jihadists are not true to Islam. If you believe the west has a mild version of Islam that does not promote Jihad, why not separate and discriminate between the two? This ensures that the distinction is one of behavior and ideology and not just religious affiliation.
    You can do anything you want. You can say we will ban all religions and that there cannot be any religion whatsoever. But when you do that you sacrificed freedom of religion. No you cannot say that the west has a mild version of Islam while at the same time saying that we will come after it in other parts of the world simply because of religious belief. Because if you can justify that, then you can justify doing it anywhere, including the U.S. What we can say is that we are going to target ANY group BECAUSE they are teaching and encouraging people to attack the U.S. And if a group is found to be doing that, then we can go after them. But that is very different from saying we will go after one group specifically because of what they believe.
    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    Just to restate the obvious, we don't single out any religion, we single out the behavior and ideology. If murderous behavior and dangerous ideology resides within a religion should we "let it go", not to be accused of religious discrimination?
    While I agree with you that we do it on the basis of behavior, I disagree with you that we should target a religion because it's ideology. That is because ideology is subjective. To see how this is problematic, if we want to say we target a religion because it has an ideological aspect that is violent, one can point to the Bible and find all kinds of references to violence. Are we going to target Christians because the Bible says there will be a war in which everyone who does not believe will be destroyed? That is the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    How about a brief mental exercise? If you could ask every member of ISIS or Al-qaeda, would they say the are fighting in the name of Islam? If so they have singled out their own religion for scrutiny via their BEHAVIOR, not us. Let's make that distinction and call it out.
    I like mental exercises. Just because they say they are fighting in the name of Islam, does that necessarily mean that it is true. Let's suppose a group of so called Christians starts killing people that they think don't believe in Jesus because the Bible says there will be a war in which non-believers will be destroyed. Should we then target Christianity as a religion based on that ideological aspect? That's the problem. Religion deals with subjects that are beyond empirical sense perception. As such, if you are going to do it based on ideological foundations, then you run into the problem of having to interpret religious texts that are old and likely have become misunderstood because of the passage of time or may not even have a sound historical basis in the first place. Even among people of various religions there are vastly different interpretations of religious texts. Is the government now going to start placing an official interpretation on religious texts? That would be stupid to try to do. But if you are going to judge a religion on ideological grounds, that is indeed what you will have to do, and that simply cannot be done properly because, as I have indicated, religion deals with things that are beyond empirical sense perception. As such it takes a divine person to interpret religious texts properly. The government just does not have the capacity to do that properly.
    Last edited by MildSteel; 02-08-15 at 11:23 AM.

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    Re: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    He qualified his statement in the next sentence, a fact you are trying to ignore. Enough said.
    I don't think he qualified his statement. It appears from the first statement that he thinks that Islam, in general, is like that. I think that he has merely placed a description on Islam in general and did not want to make a difference in Islam and radical Islam. His use of radical was merely rhetorical. And to see this he feels that we can target Muslim holy sites and kill innocent people using the justification that we did at Hiroshima. The rationale is that Islam, in general, is violent, so if we kill innocent people at a Muslim holy place, it is justified because the religion as a whole poses a threat. That's what you do not want to see.

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    Re: Should the U.S. government tell a specific religion what they can teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I don't think he qualified his statement. It appears from the first statement that he thinks that Islam, in general, is like that. I think that he has merely placed a description on Islam in general and did not want to make a difference in Islam and radical Islam. His use of radical was merely rhetorical. And to see this he feels that we can target Muslim holy sites and kill innocent people using the justification that we did at Hiroshima. The rationale is that Islam, in general, is violent, so if we kill innocent people at a Muslim holy place, it is justified because the religion as a whole poses a threat. That's what you do not want to see.
    It's obvious you have an agenda, and you see what you want to see. That is your cross to bear.

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