View Poll Results: Can Muslims ever condemn ISIS enough?

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  • Yes.

    199 94.76%
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Thread: Can Muslims ever condemn ISIS enough?

  1. #61
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    Re: Can Muslims ever condemn ISIS enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    And a helluva job they're doing.
    ISIS is losing ground.
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance. It is the illusion of knowledge" Stephen Hawking

  2. #62
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    Re: Can Muslims ever condemn ISIS enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    I can't in all honesty believe that any woman who wears a hijab by choice is condemning extremism when she is openly practicing it herself.
    Definitely disagree.


  3. #63
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    Re: Can Muslims ever condemn ISIS enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    While I think that Muslims can absolutely condemn the radicals enough, I don't think that simple condemnation is enough, they need to back up their words with action and be willing to clean up their own house. Most of them have spent decades looking the other way while the radicals have ruled the roost and it's only relatively recently that they've started to realize how out of control things are. Most of us have known that radical Islam was becoming an increasing problem for more than 30 years. Why didn't they do something about it when it wasn't rolling across the Middle East in tanks, beheading people and flying airplanes into buildings?

    Jordan has been bombing ISIS. I think that's a pretty good action.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.

  4. #64
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    Re: Can Muslims ever condemn ISIS enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    I think it's just time to accept that no matter what, some westerners will simply never trust, accept or tolerate Muslims.

    The line between legitimate suspicion and rampant paranoia is very much thinner than we think.

    But that's their problem, not mine.

    I stand against radical Islamism and those that would seek to subvert our fundamental freedoms because of their own paranoid bigotry.
    It doesn't help that whenever something news worthy happens it's easy to find video of otherwise non-involved Muslims cheering their approval. Is that a far barometer? I don't know, but I think it does indicate some level of approval within the overall community. How widespread could be debatable. Taking a group like IS, there is clearly disapproval as well.

    On the flip side I have a friend that, whenever this type of subject is brought up, will bring up the Westboro Baptist Church as a counter-argument, and how they are just as bad, yet we don't condemn them with the same veracity. (I dispute her conclusion, but that's not my point here) Unless I'm missing it, and I don't think I am, whenever the WBC does something pretty much nobody anywhere rallies and cheers "Yay WBC!"
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  5. #65
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    Re: Can Muslims ever condemn ISIS enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    Are you honestly saying that there's been nothing but peace and quiet in the ME until the emergence of ISIS? That there's never been civil war or internal strife in any Muslim country? No-one, anywhere, has raised arms at all?
    There certainly hasn't been a public uprising about these things when they were small and manageable, has there? If the moderate Muslims indeed make up 70-80% of the entire population, then why have those people allowed a small militant radical percentage to take control?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  6. #66
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    Re: Can Muslims ever condemn ISIS enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Jordan has been bombing ISIS. I think that's a pretty good action.
    Jordan has been bombing ISIS now. Where were they 6 months ago?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  7. #67
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    Re: Can Muslims ever condemn ISIS enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    There certainly hasn't been a public uprising about these things when they were small and manageable, has there? If the moderate Muslims indeed make up 70-80% of the entire population, then why have those people allowed a small militant radical percentage to take control?
    Because that's human nature. Whenever there's a rebellion or uprising, at any point in history, in any culture, the majority of the population sits it out while the authorities fight the rebels. You're basically asking people to abandon their families and lives to fight people they don't know over a cause they don't care about, for a dictator they may not like.
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  8. #68
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    Re: Can Muslims ever condemn ISIS enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    Because that's human nature. Whenever there's a rebellion or uprising, at any point in history, in any culture, the majority of the population sits it out while the authorities fight the rebels. You're basically asking people to abandon their families and lives to fight people they don't know over a cause they don't care about, for a dictator they may not like.
    Yet throughout history, there have been groups who have been willing to rebel and rise up against potential dangers. The United States is one example. If we had been made up of modern people, we'd still be under British rule.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  9. #69
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    Re: Can Muslims ever condemn ISIS enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Jordan has been bombing ISIS. I think that's a pretty good action.
    I agree that it's a good thing that Jordan is getting in on the action, though I'm disappointed that it took a horrific killing of one of their citizens to get them going.

    However, as much as their current bombing can be considered a good thing, there is also reason to believe it's really not all that good and that it could be much better...or, at least, the US could do much better if Jordan is incapable.

    Consider:

    Beyond the messages written on bombs and the noses of Jordan's second-hand F-16 fleet, most making declarations against ISIS's ideology as well as proclamations of vengeance, what was most noticeable in the video was all the dumb bombs (Mk82, Mk83, Mk84) loaded onto the aircraft. In other words, few jets appeared to have precision guided munitions loaded onto their weapons stations, and those that did were equipped only with a pair of relatively small and older, but still effective, GBU-12 laser guided bombs, which are more suited for taking out small buildings and vehicles than large fixed structures.

    Even when deployed from an advanced fighter jet with digital avionics, dumb bombs are much more accurate the lower they are released. As the altitude of their release increases so does their Circular Error Probability (CEP), in quite a drastic manner. Using this method of weapons delivery from over 15k feet, above most man portable air defense systems (MANPADS) and anti-aircraft fire, makes hitting individual structures very problematic. One way to overcome this issue is to throw more sorties at each target, but for each attack made the risk to aircrew making follow-on attacks increases. In fact, every extra minute over enemy territory increases the risk to aircrews. Additionally, and even more importantly, these bombs end up exploding somewhere regardless of if that somewhere is playground or an ammunition dump full of enemy fighters and their use greatly increases the chances of unintended causalities.

    On the other hand, if Jordanian F-16s are flying at low altitude, right into the heart of the MANPADS, anti-aircraft and even small arms fire envelope, in order to more accurately deliver their unguided weaponry, then that is a very poor and dangerous decision, both for Jordan and the coalition. Bravery aside, doing so could puts many more coalition warfighters at risk as the chances of an aircraft being brought down are quite high. This means a combat search and rescue (CSAR) mission would most likely be launched, which is another low altitude and even riskier affair that could result in an Osprey or Black Hawk full of pararescuemen being downed as well. The startling possibility that Jordan may be putting aircrew at high risk due to the possible lack of adequate guided munitions also comes as US CSAR assets are now confirmed to be operating out of northern Iraq, a move that seems extremely overdue.

    What the widespread use of dumb bombs by Jordan equates to is a set of puzzlingly simple tactics being used, ones that are highly ineffective or highly risky, while trying to obtain a very complex outcome. If Jordan hit all high-priority targets on a targeting list, they are either doing so at great peril to any innocent people nearby, or to themselves and the coalition, or they are creating a target list based on their limited weapons stores and capabilities.

    This would mean that they could be selecting a few high-priority urban targets for precision guided munitions and the rest of the targets would be those in rural areas with little potential for unintended casualties when dumb weapons are applied. Either way, dictating what targets you hit, especially on the first day of a highly invigorated air campaign, based on the limited munitions you have at hand is a poor way to fight a modern air war in 2015 and it could usher in either a large loss of innocent life, which could dangerously erode support for the operation as whole in the region, or Jordanian forces are mainly hitting very low priority targets that are located literally in the middle of nowhere.

    What This Video Of Jordanian F-16s Striking ISIS Tells Us Is Alarming*
    As I said, I think it's a good thing that Jordan is now active against ISIS, but I also think their activity is much like the US's activity...too little to be of much use.
    TANSTAAFL

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  10. #70
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    Re: Can Muslims ever condemn ISIS enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Yet throughout history, there have been groups who have been willing to rebel and rise up against potential dangers. The United States is one example. If we had been made up of modern people, we'd still be under British rule.
    Yet in the American War of Independence, only around 2% of the population actually fought the British.
    So follow me into the desert
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    And all the little pigs have God

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