View Poll Results: Should Doctor assisted suicide be legal?

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  • yes

    201 90.54%
  • Depends on the regulation put in place and circumstances

    12 5.41%
  • no

    9 4.05%
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Thread: Should American adopt the right to Doctor Assisted Suicide?

  1. #251
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    Re: Should American adopt the right to Doctor Assisted Suicide?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zinthaniel View Post
    Forgive the typo in title - *Should America...*

    Canadians have right to doctor-assisted suicide, Supreme Court rules - The Globe and Mail

    Canada can now be added to the small list of countries that give humans the right to decide when they want to end their lives legally.

    Is this a fundamental human right?

    And should the U.S. (on a national level) and other countries adopt it?
    Yes it should, with safe guards against assisted suicide in non-medically terminal cases.
    the Fix-is-in Bureau of Investigation

  2. #252
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    Re: Should American adopt the right to Doctor Assisted Suicide?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    At this point, I would kind of like some clarification on what we're talking about here; the article in the OP does not clarify what the new law in Quebec even was, and the decision of Canada's SC was to just punt and give the legislation a year to make new policy, which obviously hasn't been written yet.

    Hell, some people equate not forcing fluids with euthanasia - they seriously call it "passive euthanasia." How dumb is that? NOT giving someone medication or fluids or something else they DON'T want is equated with killing them. That's just basic autonomy. Healthcare is a service; your patient (or their MPOA, etc.) comes to you and requests something, giving you permission to do so. Without that permission, you can't do things. NOT doing something they DON'T want should be obvious (with the possible ethical exception of when a parent is refusing to provide life-saving care for their kid, but that's its own topic entirely).

    * * *

    To be clear, what Kevorkian did which landed him in prison for murder was to administer lethal medication which killed his patient. He filmed this and 60 minutes aired it. He dared the state to arrest him on that film. They did, which is correct, because he was indisputably a murderer.

    I had made the assumption we were talking about the physician killing the patient. Everything I have said is about that. Nothing in any response to me up to this point has contradicted that assumption, and I do believe the people I am arguing against think it's okay for a physician to kill their patient.


    If you kill yourself, I am okay with that. I am not okay with aggressive killing; you cannot commit aggression against yourself. As an analogy, if someone else were to force you to use cocaine, that would be aggressive harm to your body; if you choose to use cocaine, you are only harming yourself.

    On the specific topic of being given something to consume yourself which will kill you, that is more morally fuzzy. You're right, you could just as well buy a gun and shoot yourself.
    Okay. I understand your position a little better now. Your primary objection is to euthanasia, I get that. I can't take such a definite stance, because for some people who are paralyzed or have some other condition that prevents them from being able to take the drugs themselves, they really need someone else to help them. It's just not right to deny them the right to end their own life when they desperately want to end it and would do so themselves if it weren't for their condition.

    ETA: Also, a useful info link: http://eol.law.dal.ca/?page_id=236
    Last edited by Arcana XV; 02-08-15 at 09:15 AM.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

  3. #253
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    Re: Should American adopt the right to Doctor Assisted Suicide?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    There is just nothing else I can say about the absurdity of your posts. I suppose when my kid falls off his bike I can just tell him that injury is subjective and it's only his opinion that he is injuried. Indeed, even if he claims he is hurt according to your logic I can accurately claim he is not hurt at all even when perhaps he is covered in blood from an open wound.
    Good grief. How can you even compare the two.

    One person in physical and emotional agony - not feeling relief from the agony. Asking for death. Death being welcome. Do you think that the person would feel injured or harmed by death? Or perhaps welcome it with open arms?

    But sure.....it is like falling off a bike.

    OK, since we are going for silly analogies...try this one. A person happily goes in to get their ears pierced. The procedure goes off flawlessly. Is the person "injured"?

    Same person does not want their ears pierced and is held down against their will . Is that person "injured"?

  4. #254
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    Re: Should American adopt the right to Doctor Assisted Suicide?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    So refuse treatment, refuse food, and refuse water.

    You will die soon enough and no one else will be responsible for that death but you.
    Wow, people actually 'liked' this post. There's no limit to human stupidity.

  5. #255
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    Re: Should American adopt the right to Doctor Assisted Suicide?

    Quote Originally Posted by year2late View Post
    What you call "injury" may be someone else's end of suffering. The end of pain. The person who is asking for Physician Assisted Suicide would consider the act help rather than harm.
    Like I wrote, medication to cause someone to go to sleep and then further depress breathing isnt physical damage (his original claim) or injury.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  6. #256
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    Re: Should American adopt the right to Doctor Assisted Suicide?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    There's no limit to human stupidity.
    No doubt you set out to prove that with this post. Well done, you accomplished your task.

  7. #257
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    Re: Should American adopt the right to Doctor Assisted Suicide?

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    Yes it should, with safe guards against assisted suicide in non-medically terminal cases.
    Just to muddy the water further, I also believe we should legalize euthanasia. There are those that do not wish to live as quadraplegics for example, or with conditions that cause great inescapable pain. Of course I still believe there should be counseling, psychiatric evaluation, and safeguards from other peoples' motivations.

    But who on Earth are strangers to tell someone that they must exist if they dont want to? How amazingly and disgustingly presumptuous is that to insist on and then to insist they dont know their own minds well enough so we wont allow anyone to help them? An insult to humans, period. Nothing but attempting to force their beliefs on others.

    Just more sanctimonious semantic crap. If this is a person's well-thought out choice, the assistance they need...whether it just be a prescription or if it must be administered by a doctor or nurse....should be provided, legally.




    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    Okay. I understand your position a little better now. Your primary objection is to euthanasia, I get that. I can't take such a definite stance, because for some people who are paralyzed or have some other condition that prevents them from being able to take the drugs themselves, they really need someone else to help them. It's just not right to deny them the right to end their own life when they desperately want to end it and would do so themselves if it weren't for their condition.

    ETA: Also, a useful info link: Assisted Suicide - End-of-Life Law and Policy in Canada | End-of-Life Law and Policy in Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  8. #258
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    Re: Should American adopt the right to Doctor Assisted Suicide?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    No doubt you set out to prove that with this post. Well done, you accomplished your task.
    The height of absurdity (and lack of simple human compassion) comes from your assertion that someone dying of a horrible illness should simply starve/thirst themselves to a prolonged, agonizing death, rather than be given a dignified end by a qualified physician.

  9. #259
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    Re: Should American adopt the right to Doctor Assisted Suicide?

    You compared palliation with homicide.
    No I didn't. Not even once. You have - because it is you whom believes that assisting a suicide is comparable to murder, but also in the same breath believe that it is ok to offer palliative care to someone committing suicide.
    Anyone looking at the facts in a rational manner knows the difference between treating an uncomfortable symptom to give relief and deliberately killing someone.
    I do. You don't. That much has been established.
    So what, you're claiming that your theoretical Kevorkian-esque contract killer "doctor" is killing them on accident? This is a hired killing, it is intentional and premeditated
    You are beating your strawman to death. You can color assisted suicide as murder all you want, but it won't make it true. There is no malice aforethought. Sorry. Try again.
    This is the mission statement of the United States. Like most libertarians, I agree with it wholeheartedly.
    UNALIENABLE.
    I don't care who you agree with or idolize. You are making an appeal to an authority. An authority that is not infallible. Decrees set forth by man are not mandated also by nature. We can oppose one's decision. One's subjective moral compass. One's perceptions of life, dignity, etc. We can even, wait for it, Oppose long ingrained Laws.
    You can't sell yourself into slavery. You're not allowed to do so even if you want to. You can work for someone for no money if you choose to, but you cannot become their property and you will ALWAYS retain the liberty to stop doing so.
    Never said I could or would. Even still. You are continuing to make appeals to the word of man. Words written long ago. And those words are not, in any way, anything other than a collective and SUBJECTIVE echo of decisions from a time long ago.
    This has nothing to do with slavery, anyways. This has everything to do with an individuals right to choose when they want to die - and choose to seek medical assistance in doing so. Nothing about that violates any natural law. And natural law is very often subjective to begin with.
    You can give away your property, but you can't give away your right to own property.
    Says who? Some guy. Some joe shmoe? Some perfect ultimate being? My rebuttal remains the same. Your appeals to established laws does not somehow establish your argument as one that reflects the immutable characteristics of life. Plain and simple.
    You can't give someone else permission to kill you, or rather, even if you do, it doesn't matter, killing you would still be an act of aggression because they are initiating force against you.
    What field of science defines any of that as an inescapable fact of life? Or are you again appealing to an opinion? Laws, decrees, established perceptions and understandings of things change. I've made this clear to you quite a few times now.
    Killing other humans is wrong unless it's necessary to do so in self-defense, to defend your own rights against the aggression of others.
    Says who? Another person/ group of persons? Their decree is now being challenged. And the opposition is doing a bang up job at amending the established perception on assisted suicide, i.e when it is right to kill someone. Deal with those facts.
    that's your right to think that, and it's my right to be thankful I do not live anywhere near someone who is openly "morally flexible" on the principle of whether or not killing other humans in aggression is okay
    There is nothing aggressive about doctor assisted suicide.

    Check the definition of the word "aggression" so that you can better understand because clearly you, currently, do not.

    Aggression - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
    : angry or violent behavior or feelings

    : hostile action against another country, government, etc.
    since, you know, I happen to be a human and I kind of hope other people will not kill me.
    I know you are human. That is why you are so prone to lapse into these hyperbolic nonsense rants that don't have an ounce of reason. It's because you are human that you are arguing not from logic but from your stubbornness against conceding in a debate you have already lost.
    As a rule, I'm wary of those who promote needless killing.
    And yet no one is doing that. That is your straw man. You are coloring the oppositions argument as murder because that is an easier argument to address than actually addressing the actual argument. Which is not murder or "needless killing" but compassion and mercy granted to ill and suffering individuals who want out.
    Last edited by Zinthaniel; 02-08-15 at 03:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    In my own experience here, people seem to ignore a posters professional experience or training if the app pro holds a view that is disagreed with.

  10. #260
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    Re: Should American adopt the right to Doctor Assisted Suicide?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zinthaniel View Post
    No I didn't. Not even once.
    You lie:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zinthaniel View Post
    If you give pain medicine to an individual who is committing suicide for the sole purpose of making that suicide painless, then you are assisting in that suicide.
    So as stated, you compared palliation with homicide.

    You have - because it is you whom believes that assisting a suicide is comparable to murder
    If you're killing someone, it is the same thing. Literally. You will be charged with murder.

    but also in the same breath believe that it is ok to offer palliative care to someone committing suicide.
    Yes, if someone is refusing food and fluids in an effort to hasten their own death but they do request palliation of any symptoms of discomfort, there is nothing wrong whatsoever with providing palliation.

    I do. You don't. That much has been established.
    You don't think there is a difference. So no, what you just said makes zero sense.

    You are beating your strawman to death. You can color assisted suicide as murder all you want, but it won't make it true. There is no malice aforethought. Sorry. Try again.
    What's the point in trying again? I successfully made my point the first time. There's nothing more to say. You refuse to understand and you're stamping your feet, but that won't change anything, as you haven't offered a single bit of reasoning to back up your statement.

    You say there's no malice aforethought. To rebut this falsehood, I provided the definition of malice aforethought. I demonstrated how it is impossible that the guy you pay to kill you would not be deliberately and intentionally killing you, with premeditation. You still claim that there is no malice aforethought, appropriate of nothing in reality or the definition of the legal term.

    What you're saying is absolutely crazy. Please explain how you intentionally kill someone without malice aforethought.

    I don't care who you agree with or idolize. You are making an appeal to an authority. An authority that is not infallible. Decrees set forth by man are not mandated also by nature. We can oppose one's decision. One's subjective moral compass. One's perceptions of life, dignity, etc.
    Obviously not. Unfortunately, as an American I have to count on my fellow Americans to hold our government accountable and make sure it upholds our human rights. You actually want the government to spit on them.

    "May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget you were my countrymen."

    (That was some "old archaic" dude who said that, so you probably don't care)
    Last edited by JayDubya; 02-08-15 at 03:49 PM.

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