• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Should American adopt the right to Doctor Assisted Suicide?

Should Doctor assisted suicide be legal?

  • yes

    Votes: 42 70.0%
  • Depends on the regulation put in place and circumstances

    Votes: 11 18.3%
  • no

    Votes: 7 11.7%

  • Total voters
    60
I try.

I also think people who want to have a doctor help them commit suicide should have to be organ donors.

I couldn't support that because of the same reason I support assisted suicide, rights.
I do think organ donation should be an "opt out" thing instead of in but I couldn't force it to protect religious rights. Some religions are very specific what should happen during death or to the body so I couldn't support violating that.

I know that's like a double edge sword because the immediate thought is what religion allows suicide but not organ donation hahahaha

Well the answer is I don't know BUT there might be one so I wouldn't force it. :)
 
How do you kill someone without causing them physical damage?

Their own body is taking care of that.....the individual just wants to end their own suffering at a faster pace than their own body.

Maybe they can tell their disease to stop causing their body damage and everything will be ok?

We all perceive pain and emotional suffering differently. If they have gone through reasonable measures to alleviate their own suffering without physician assisted suicide.......who are we to say they have to suffer to death.

By the way, as a critical care nurse of over 30 years, I can tell you that many feel intense suffering and misery by having their friends and family watch them linger. I would be this way as well. Get it over with.
 
Harm: to cause injury to another; to hurt; to cause damage to something

So again, how do you kill someone and not harm them?

So again you are not answering my request and again this has nothing to do with aggression hahaha.

But like I said I'm very entertained by people who post lies, since you are going to dodge my question lets play your game because the results will be the same, your lie losing :)

Here is the definition of "harm"
: physical or mental damage or injury : something that causes someone or something to be hurt, broken, made less valuable or successful, etc.

now objectively apply this to assisted suicide.

I want to die, so my Doctor hands me a pill, I take it, I fall a sleep and I die.

Now Please point out the "objective" aggression and harm.
 
Accepted :)

I think there are other subforums where you can have all sorts of casual discussions and a Basement where you can flame away but I dont go there.

So a place where there's no rules? That might be fun on certain days and when I'm in certain moods. Thanks again you've been helpful.
 
Their own body is taking care of that.....the individual just wants to end their own suffering at a faster pace than their own body.

Maybe they can tell their disease to stop causing their body damage and everything will be ok?

We all perceive pain and emotional suffering differently. If they have gone through reasonable measures to alleviate their own suffering without physician assisted suicide.......who are we to say they have to suffer to death.

By the way, as a critical care nurse of over 30 years, I can tell you that many feel intense suffering and misery by having their friends and family watch them linger. I would be this way as well. Get it over with.

I know. My mother is a registered nurse and spent time working in a nursing home. We've had many discussions about this and similar topics. She is a strong Christian woman but supports assisted suicide and definitely supports DNRs and not taking extreme measures to save the elderly or those severely damaged. And we all have Living Wills. My folks are in their 70s btw.
 
An injection or dosage of medication that puts someone to sleep and continues to depress their breathing until it stops isnt doing any physical damage.:doh

It's ridiculous to imagine this as force as well.

Jus' sayin'.
 
Why? One has nothing to do with the other.
I think it's fairly obvious why -- if you are going to ask the medical profession to help you commit suicide, you might as well help the medical profession and the community by donating the organs you yourself disvalue and have no further use for.
 
That would be you doing the warping, chief.

You're equivocating giving someone relief from distressing symptoms and deliberately killing them. That's warped.


No I haven't warped a single thing, that is your strawman though.

Hyperbole is synonymous with exaggeration. There is no exaggeration in pointing out to you that "assisted suicide" is not legal, violates the principles of medical ethics, aggressively violates the human right to life, and the act could / should / and has been prosecuted as murder.

No it doesn't. That is just your skewed opinion on a doctor who, in his medical expertise, can see the suffering of an individual and at that individuals request allow them to pass peacefully. There is nothing about that - that is aggressive, unethical, or murderous. Period.

If your location is accurate, it is a serious felony to assist in a suicide in your state. I suppose what specific criminal charge is issued would be up to prosecutorial discretion. If someone pulled that in my state, things would go very badly for them; as they should.
No they wouldn't. With precedence set in the U.S. by some states - and the fact that the reason for the assisted suicide would be taken into consideration. There would be no reason for serious charges. Most people, unlike you, know that if someone is suffering and they want out granting them a peaceful exit is not the same is murdering someone against their will. <--- again, that is your strawman.


Murder is a specific criminal charge as defined by legal jurisdiction; it is not, as you claimed "taking the life from someone who did not want to die." Do you need examples of why your effort at defining the term is a failure, or is that self-evident? A lot of humans are killed who have not expressed a desire to die. A lot of criminals don't want to die, they want to profit at the expense of others, but then they get killed while committing their crimes. If you need more examples, do let me know.

I know it's meaning. Murder, by law, is defined as killing with malice aforethought.

Again it doesn't fit with what we are discussing. Mutual agreement between patient and medical professional - in which the patient willfully, voluntarily, decides that they want their professional medical care giver to help them die in peace is not the same as murder.

And it never will be no matter how hard you try to warp the definition of the word.

The initiation of force. Killing is justified only in very limited circumstances, such as self-defense.

Nothing in this sentence is a fact that can't be amended by further regulatory wording written into some book for legislation. You appeal to the authority to old archaic words of man is noted, but your insistence that such fallible decrees can not be updated continues to be the wrench in your argument.


If a patient is so helpless they cannot perform any sort of active action to kill themselves, then clearly they do not meet those criteria, as they cannot possibly be attacking anyone else. Therefore by inflicting intentional, lethal harm on them, that is aggression as you the party initiating force.

Again nothing you said is some sort of universal fact written in to the fabric the holds all things together. All of that of which you wrote is an opinion of what is considered harm. And it is that exact opinion that is be challenged and is loosing it's footing.

People believe that anyone should have the right to choose their fate. That's a fact.



What is unethical is the subject of debate within the philosophy of ethics. You clearly have a divergent philosophy and you think that folks can abdicate their own natural rights. That runs counter to our country's mission statement, the Declaration of Independence, which asserts that we humans have several unalienable rights.

What are natural rights and who defines them?

Our countries principles have made many claims? are you arguing that those claims are infallible truths? Are you suggesting that we have never amended the wording in our constitution to better reflect our evolving understanding of things?
 
So again you are not answering my request and again this has nothing to do with aggression hahaha.

But like I said I'm very entertained by people who post lies, since you are going to dodge my question lets play your game because the results will be the same, your lie losing :)

Here is the definition of "harm"
: physical or mental damage or injury : something that causes someone or something to be hurt, broken, made less valuable or successful, etc.

now objectively apply this to assisted suicide.

I want to die, so my Doctor hands me a pill, I take it, I fall a sleep and I die.

Now Please point out the "objective" aggression and harm.

I'm a bit curious when I lied, but whatever that's not important. What is important is that by giving them the pill you have put into motion something that will cause them to die. Yes, they will die regardless, but that is by natural causes or one that was not caused by the doctor I hope, but when the doctor puts into motion a quickening of their death they have taken a step with the intent to harm the patient. Causing someone's death is a harm because it is the causing of their body to no longer function.
 
I know that's like a double edge sword because the immediate thought is what religion allows suicide but not organ donation hahahaha
That was my thought as well. In any event, I obviously don't feel that assisted suicide is a fundamental right, so I have no problem conditioning the exercise of that right in socially beneficial ways. This is a secular condition. If people care that much about what happens to their organs after they die, they can commit suicide on their own.
 
I think it's fairly obvious why -- if you are going to ask the medical profession to help you commit suicide, you might as well help the medical profession and the community by donating the organs you yourself disvalue and have no further use for.

It seems like you are just putting up something on your wish list as a condition of providing the service. I suppose that is fine, but honestly the two things don't go together.
 
It seems like you are just putting up something on your wish list as a condition of providing the service. I suppose that is fine, but honestly the two things don't go together.
I think it's fairly straightforward. You are committing suicide. That necessarily and immediately brings to the forefront the issue of what happens with your organs afterwards. It's not like I'm proposing conditioning assisted suicide on the patient buying an Xbox or something.
 
As far as assisted suicide goes I agree that persons who are dying from non curable diseases should be able to choose Doctor assisted suicides if they want to. Our laws are sometimes kinder to sick pets than they are to our loved ones.


I know in the 1990s Dr. K from Michigan tried very hard to make doctor assisted sucide legal and even invented a suicide machine that patients could use themselves to commit sucide. Eventually he was arrested and spent several years in jail but it was a cause in which he believed , and a cause I believed in and I was hoping the SC would take it up and make it legal.
They looked at it twice in 1997 but said there was no constional right for assisted suicide.

Oregon passed a law that allows assisted sucide and in 2006 the SC did allow the Oregon to stand so maybe we getting closer to
Making assisted sucide legal.

We can hope.
 
It's ridiculous to imagine this as force as well.

Jus' sayin'.
It is just dying on your own terms. Death by being ravaged by disease or being spared the ravages of the disease.

As a nurse, I have known many patients that are totally at peace with the process of dying and desire to extract every ounce of life (no matter ho painful) until the end. I have clearly known others that just want it all over with now.

By the way...I highly recommend "Sill Alice" - a movie about how a woman with early onset Alzheimer's deals with her disease. Julianne Moore kicked butt in the lead.

Still Alice (2014) - Moviefone
 
Again by definition that's not objective

No, by definition he is correct. Killing is always harm.

For someone who complains about other people, you seem to lack grounding in what a lot of very basic terms mean.
 
No, by definition he is correct. Killing is always harm.

For someone who complains about other people, you seem to lack grounding in what a lot of very basic terms mean.

When the person wants to die, begs to die....."killing" causing harm is quite subjective.
 
When the person wants to die, begs to die....."killing" causing harm is quite subjective.

"Killing" in quotation marks. Yowza.

If someone is alive and you perform an act that causes physical injury to them to the extent that they die from your action, yes, that's the very definition of harm and yes, that's the very definition of killing.
 
"Killing" in quotation marks. Yowza.

If someone is alive and you perform an act that causes physical injury to them to the extent that they die from your action, yes, that's the very definition of harm and yes, that's the very definition of killing.

Injury is in the eye of the beholder.
 
Injury is in the eye of the beholder.

That lime is not objectively a lime. No, it's only subjectively a lime. Yes, everything in the world is subjective. ****, what in the hell is going on with you ladies?
 
That lime is not objectively a lime. No, it's only subjectively a lime. Yes, everything in the world is subjective. ****, what in the hell is going on with you ladies?

What you call "injury" may be someone else's end of suffering. The end of pain. The person who is asking for Physician Assisted Suicide would consider the act help rather than harm.
 
What you call "injury" may be someone else's end of suffering. The end of pain. The person who is asking for Physician Assisted Suicide would consider the act help rather than harm.

There is just nothing else I can say about the absurdity of your posts. I suppose when my kid falls off his bike I can just tell him that injury is subjective and it's only his opinion that he is injuried. Indeed, even if he claims he is hurt according to your logic I can accurately claim he is not hurt at all even when perhaps he is covered in blood from an open wound.
 
Last edited:
No I haven't warped a single thing, that is your strawman though.

This is a lie. You compared palliation with homicide. They are not the same thing. Anyone looking at the facts in a rational manner knows the difference between treating an uncomfortable symptom to give relief and deliberately killing someone.

No it doesn't. That is just your skewed opinion on a doctor who, in his medical expertise, can see the suffering of an individual and at that individuals request allow them to pass peacefully. There is nothing about that - that is aggressive, unethical, or murderous. Period.

No they wouldn't. With precedence set in the U.S. by some states - and the fact that the reason for the assisted suicide would be taken into consideration. There would be no reason for serious charges.

Yawn. Jack Kevorkian, convicted murderer. Deny it all you want. If you don't believe killing folks in aggression in my state would land you in prison for the rest of your life, I suppose you could try it, but I wouldn't recommend it.

I know it's meaning. Murder, by law, is defined as killing with malice aforethought.

So what, you're claiming that your theoretical Kevorkian-esque contract killer "doctor" is killing them on accident? This is a hired killing, it is intentional and premeditated.

Nothing in this sentence is a fact that can't be amended by further regulatory wording written into some book for legislation. You appeal to the authority to old archaic words of man is noted, but your insistence that such fallible decrees can not be updated continues to be the wrench in your argument.

Old archaic, huh? Do you work for the Department of Redundancy Department, Redundancy Division?

Okay here are some archaic words of man. I sort of respect them for some reason, I dunno.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

This is the mission statement of the United States. Like most libertarians, I agree with it wholeheartedly.

UNALIENABLE.

You can't sell yourself into slavery. You're not allowed to do so even if you want to. You can work for someone for no money if you choose to, but you cannot become their property and you will ALWAYS retain the liberty to stop doing so.

You can give away your property, but you can't give away your right to own property.

You can't give someone else permission to kill you, or rather, even if you do, it doesn't matter, killing you would still be an act of aggression because they are initiating force against you.

Killing other humans is wrong unless it's necessary to do so in self-defense, to defend your own rights against the aggression of others. I don't even support execution.


If the maxim "killing is wrong unless absolutely necessary to defend yourself" is something you consider unethical and archaic, then that's your right to think that, and it's my right to be thankful I do not live anywhere near someone who is openly "morally flexible" on the principle of whether or not killing other humans in aggression is okay, since, you know, I happen to be a human and I kind of hope other people will not kill me. As a rule, I'm wary of those who promote needless killing.
 
Last edited:
"Killing" in quotation marks. Yowza.

If someone is alive and you perform an act that causes physical injury to them to the extent that they die from your action, yes, that's the very definition of harm and yes, that's the very definition of killing.

Okay, I agree with this much. But that is not what assisted suicide is about. That is what euthanasia is about. In assisted suicide the doctor does not kill the patient. The patient kills him/herself by ingesting a lethal drug cocktail. Am I understanding correctly that you equate the action of providing the drugs with the actual act of killing someone? If I know that someone wants to kill themselves and I give them my gun, which they proceed to use to blow their brains out, should I be charged with murder? Complicity to murder? Something else? ...
 
Okay, I agree with this much. But that is not what assisted suicide is about. That is what euthanasia is about. In assisted suicide the doctor does not kill the patient. The patient kills him/herself by ingesting a lethal drug cocktail. Am I understanding correctly that you equate the action of providing the drugs with the actual act of killing someone? If I know that someone wants to kill themselves and I give them my gun, which they proceed to use to blow their brains out, should I be charged with murder? Complicity to murder? Something else? ...

At this point, I would kind of like some clarification on what we're talking about here; the article in the OP does not clarify what the new law in Quebec even was, and the decision of Canada's SC was to just punt and give the legislation a year to make new policy, which obviously hasn't been written yet.

Hell, some people equate not forcing fluids with euthanasia - they seriously call it "passive euthanasia." How dumb is that? NOT giving someone medication or fluids or something else they DON'T want is equated with killing them. That's just basic autonomy. Healthcare is a service; your patient (or their MPOA, etc.) comes to you and requests something, giving you permission to do so. Without that permission, you can't do things. NOT doing something they DON'T want should be obvious (with the possible ethical exception of when a parent is refusing to provide life-saving care for their kid, but that's its own topic entirely).

* * *

To be clear, what Kevorkian did which landed him in prison for murder was to administer lethal medication which killed his patient. He filmed this and 60 minutes aired it. He dared the state to arrest him on that film. They did, which is correct, because he was indisputably a murderer.

I had made the assumption we were talking about the physician killing the patient. Everything I have said is about that. Nothing in any response to me up to this point has contradicted that assumption, and I do believe the people I am arguing against think it's okay for a physician to kill their patient.


If you kill yourself, I am okay with that. I am not okay with aggressive killing; you cannot commit aggression against yourself. As an analogy, if someone else were to force you to use cocaine, that would be aggressive harm to your body; if you choose to use cocaine, you are only harming yourself.

On the specific topic of being given something to consume yourself which will kill you, that is more morally fuzzy. You're right, you could just as well buy a gun and shoot yourself.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom