View Poll Results: Do campaign donations influence politicians' votes?

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  • Yes, campaign donations buy legislative votes

    179 97.81%
  • No, people/PACs just donate to politicians that reflect their own values.

    4 2.19%
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Thread: Do campaign efforts (contributions or ads) from PACS affect how a politican votes?

  1. #11
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    Re: Do campaign efforts (contributions or ads) from PACS affect how a politican votes

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    No, it was discussing "politicians" just like you quoted. What's with the goal-post moving exercise here?

    But since you want to go there, how do "individuals" sign up to get paid for their vote?
    It is now abundantly clear you have not read the report. It looks at voting trends and money, it does not look at individuals. Some individuals certainly do take money for votes, and some have been convicted of doing that. That is why my answer is the only accurate one, which is that it depends on the politician.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  2. #12
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    Re: Do campaign efforts (contributions or ads) from PACS affect how a politican votes

    Quote Originally Posted by radioman View Post
    I "think" donations influence politician's votes.



    Thirty four pages, eh?
    I'm guessing there is no Cliff Notes version available.
    I'll try and muscle my way through this report today.
    I'll withhold my vote until then.

    The abstract: Do Campaign Donations Alter how a Politician Votes? by Stephen G. Bronars, John R. Lott :: SSRN

    Despite all the work on how campaign donations influence politician's behavior, the nagging question of whether contributions alter how the politician votes or whether these contributions constitute support for like-minded individuals remains unresolved. By combining the campaign contributions literature with the work on politicians intrinsically valuing policy outcomes, we offer a simple test that examines how politicians' voting patterns change when they retire and no longer face the threat of lost campaign contributions. If contributions are causing individual politicians to vote differently, there should be systematic changes in voting behavior when future contributions are eliminated. On the other hand, if contributors donate to candidates who intrinsically value the same policies, there should be no changes in how a politician votes during the last period.
    Note that the paper if from 1997. ALso note that one of the authors had issues with supplying a survey he claimed to have taken for another of his papers. Does not make the conclusions about this paper wrong, but is important for full disclosure,
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  3. #13
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    Re: Do campaign efforts (contributions or ads) from PACS affect how a politican votes

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    It is now abundantly clear you have not read the report. It looks at voting trends and money, it does not look at individuals. Some individuals certainly do take money for votes, and some have been convicted of doing that. That is why my answer is the only accurate one, which is that it depends on the politician.
    Unless you want to pretend that the exceptions are actually the rule, you have to accept that the money doesn't actually influence the votes in any way that can be measured or determined. I know this conflicts with lots of peoples' "gut feelings" but "gut feelings" aren't very scientific and liberals really want to claim they're the "scientific" ones, right?
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Do campaign efforts (contributions or ads) from PACS affect how a politican votes

    If people think that corporations and individuals give millions of dollars to campaigns just because... they're missing the point.

  5. #15
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    Re: Do campaign efforts (contributions or ads) from PACS affect how a politican votes

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Unless you want to pretend that the exceptions are actually the rule, you have to accept that the money doesn't actually influence the votes in any way that can be measured or determined. I know this conflicts with lots of peoples' "gut feelings" but "gut feelings" aren't very scientific and liberals really want to claim they're the "scientific" ones, right?
    My answer is not a "gut feel", but based entirely on the fact(not opinion) that some politicians have been convicted of selling votes. Therefore some people do in fact take money for votes in whatever form. Therefore some politicians(note that does not mean all, and does not in any way, shape or form dispute the paper) are influenced in their votes by money. I am sorry if my answer is not the one you want, but it is the accurate answer.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Do campaign efforts (contributions or ads) from PACS affect how a politican votes

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Here is the most rational study I've ever seen on the issue. The methodology is to look at the records of politicians before they announce retirement and after they announce retirement. This is important because after a politician announces retirement, the donations stop flowing and the "influence of the money" evaporates.

    So what do you think? Is there evidence that donations influence the way politicians vote?

    http://www.campaignfreedom.org/wp-co...-And-Votes.pdf
    This article has sought to answer the causality question of whether campaign
    contributions are made to support politicians with the ‘‘right’’ beliefs
    or whether politicians’ support can be bought. Our tests strongly reject the
    notion that campaign contributions buy politicians’ votes. While it is not
    possible for us to conclude that none of the congressmen ever sold their
    votes for donations, our estimates demonstrate a remarkable degree of stability
    in voting patterns over time, thus lending support to past work emphasizing
    that it is costly for ideological politicians to alter their positions.
    Contrary to the usual presumption, the article shows that campaign donations
    can be ‘‘rational’’ even when they do not alter how an individual politician votes.
    Just like voters, contributors appear able to sort into office politicians
    who intrinsically value the same things that they do.
    Both the ‘‘ideological sorting’’ and the ‘‘vote-buying’’ hypotheses are
    able to explain the positive correlations observed between PAC contributions
    and voting behavior. Yet our evidence also indicates that there is usually
    no relationship between changing campaign donations during a congressman’s
    last term and how he votes during that last term. The results
    remain essentially unchanged even after alternative explanations are accounted
    for, such as whether politicians were able to divert campaign funds
    toward personal use and what the politician or his offspring do after he
    leaves elective office.
    I've heard this before, but never so well researched and explained so clearly. At the end of the day, on the whole, people support the politicians who vote for the things they support. Politicians do not vote according to who's paying the bills. Are there exceptions?? Of course there are and on all sides. So what we should be focusing on is identifying the miscreants and not simply lumping everyone together into one pseudo-homogenous mass and treating them all like they are selling their votes. Let's cull out the bad eggs and do it fast.
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

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    Re: Do campaign efforts (contributions or ads) from PACS affect how a politican votes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    If people think that corporations and individuals give millions of dollars to campaigns just because... they're missing the point.
    You didn't read anything the article said, did you?? Let me give you the "Cliff's Notes" version:
    Basically there two possibilities in the money/votes scenario. One is that politicians react to the money and vote according to who's paying them. The other is that the people paying them are paying them because they vote according to what they support. The study compared the voting records of politicians before and after they announced their retirement (when campaign contributions dry up) and found little in the way of changes to how they voted. This shows that the money wasn't what was driving the votes, but the votes that were driving the money.
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

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    Re: Do campaign efforts (contributions or ads) from PACS affect how a politican votes

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    My answer is not a "gut feel", but based entirely on the fact(not opinion) that some politicians have been convicted of selling votes. Therefore some people do in fact take money for votes in whatever form. Therefore some politicians(note that does not mean all, and does not in any way, shape or form dispute the paper) are influenced in their votes by money. I am sorry if my answer is not the one you want, but it is the accurate answer.
    "Some" is valid. Some people use their cars to kill other people. That doesn't mean that you can legitimately argue that cars are murder weapons. Some politicians take bribes. That doesn't mean that campaign contributions are all bribes.

    As long as we keep 'some' in perspective, I've no argument with you pointing out the fact that there are occasionally exceptions to rules.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Do campaign efforts (contributions or ads) from PACS affect how a politican votes

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    My answer is not a "gut feel", but based entirely on the fact(not opinion) that some politicians have been convicted of selling votes. Therefore some people do in fact take money for votes in whatever form. Therefore some politicians(note that does not mean all, and does not in any way, shape or form dispute the paper) are influenced in their votes by money. I am sorry if my answer is not the one you want, but it is the accurate answer.
    The point is that lumping them all in together and treating them all like they are criminals is the wrong approach. We should be seeking out those who are selling their votes and giving them a retirement plan that includes steel cages, one hour of yard time a day and a job making license plates.
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

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    Re: Do campaign efforts (contributions or ads) from PACS affect how a politican votes

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    "Some" is valid.
    That is all you needed to say. My answer was the accurate answer.

    Some people use their cars to kill other people. That doesn't mean that you can legitimately argue that cars are murder weapons. Some politicians take bribes. That doesn't mean that campaign contributions are all bribes.
    That is a claim few people make.

    As long as we keep 'some' in perspective, I've no argument with you pointing out the fact that there are occasionally exceptions to rules.
    Accuracy is always important. Nothing I said ever in any way was contradicted by your report. This is something you would have realized if you had read my posts and the report.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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