View Poll Results: Would You Consider A Vote For Jill Stein?

Voters
308. You may not vote on this poll
  • Absolutely!

    107 34.74%
  • Only If My Preferred GOP Candidate Loses The Nomination

    42 13.64%
  • Only If My Preferred Dem Candidate Loses The Nomination

    49 15.91%
  • Strong Maybe, Leaning Yes.

    40 12.99%
  • Meh. It Could Happen.

    18 5.84%
  • I Like Her And Support Her Run, But No....

    32 10.39%
  • No Way!

    20 6.49%
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Thread: Jill Stein

  1. #111
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    Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I disagree. Politically savvy people know what their message is, they just reject it. I know what they stand for, I've looked into it, I just want no part of it. I think they are better known than you think, it's just another excuse given for why they lose so badly.
    I think what you are looking at is political savvy people whom abide on this site and others. I do not think you are looking at the average voter or Joe Blow. Most independents do not pay one iota to the operations over government until a couple of weeks before an election. Candidates are the same with them and they make up 40% of the electorate. A lot of them base there vote on a slogan they heard on TV, which one looks more presidential, which party their parents belonged to and so on.

    I think you would be surprised if the money was relative even how these people would vote. Of course Republicans are going to vote Republican and Democrats Democratic. On average 93% of those who identify with either major party votes for their candidates regardless of whom they are.


    Think about Perot’s vote in 1992, back then 33% of the electorate identified with the Democrats, 27% with the Republicans and 40% were independents, according to Pew Research. Clinton received 43% of the vote, Bush the first 38% and Perot 19%. So if as history shows 93% of those who identify with the two major parties voted for them in 1992, that means independents broke around 25% for Clinton, 25% for Bush the first and 50% for Perot. Rough figures since both Clinton and Bush the first received 10% above those who associate with their parties, Perot the rest with 40% of the electorate making up the independent ranks.

    Perot’s message resonated enough to convince half of all independents to vote for him. More would have if he hadn’t pulled that stupid stunt of getting out and then back in. There are a lot of independents looking for someone else, anyone else besides the two major party nominees. Perot had some money, Johnson and Stein had none.

    But it does seem we will have to agree to disagree. For any third party to be viable, it not only has to win over independents, but has to take away from those who now affiliate with the two major parties.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

  2. #112
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    Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I disagree. Politically savvy people know what their message is, they just reject it. I know what they stand for, I've looked into it, I just want no part of it. I think they are better known than you think, it's just another excuse given for why they lose so badly.

    as evidenced by the fact that on a website (in principle) dedicated to debating politics, you have posters who don't know who she is.

  3. #113
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    Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by a351 View Post
    Anyone who complains about current gridlock can't support Stein with much credibility. Both her and the Green's platform is a comical wishlist that wouldn't even garner support from Democrats, let alone two Republican controlled houses.

    wait, we were assured earlier that the Greens are just "more extreme Democrats"

  4. #114
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    Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    I'm fine with contracts and the entire reason I am a socialist is because I want people to be able to keep te fruits of their labor. I want workers to be paid what their labor is worth. That's pretty much the backbone of socialist ideas.
    "What labor is worth" is set by market forces. Socialists absolutely despise market forces and wish to impose price floors on wages such as the minimum wage. If you supported free contracts, you'd support workers accepting below some arbitrary figure of what you consider the "worth" of labor. People should be free to accept any wage they like. That's a libertarian notion.

    Labor theory of value has long been discredited, btw.


    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    You literally nitpicked two miniscule parts from the platform. That doesn't prove ****.
    Yeah, you're right, mentioning the absolute bedrock on which their policies are formed is nitpicking.

    I think it's pretty damn significant that the Greens desire to dictate how our economy is structured. Sounds like big government bull**** to me and very unfriendly to entrepreneurs.

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    The political party has, yes.
    Libertarianism in the U.S is larger in scope than its representation by the Libertarian Party. It's a real tradition stretching back to the Founders (classical liberalism) and other great minds who inspired them. Never has libertarianism in the U.S meant the socialist claptrap Chomsky and others espouse.


    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    Yes, I am a socialist. But socialism is an economic school of thought, not a political philosophy. It has no inherent position on other issues. Hence why socialists can be so diverse ranging from socially conservative to anarchist to libertarian to totalitarian. According to the political compass and similar charts, left/right is economics and up/down (authoritarian/libertarian) is social and civil issues. I occupy the bottom-left quadrant. Left-Libertarianism. That may offend you or whatever, but shockingly not everyone sees everything in binary as you do.
    TeleKat. Socialism has never existed as a "libertarian philosophy". I like talking about what's real, not the ideal. All socialism's known forms have devolved into the worst authoritarianism and tyranny known to history. The blood spilled from its violent revolutions, purges, gulags and agitations has stained the pages of the 20th century. And I wonder why? Because the "righteous" intentions of the socialists clash with their imperfect nature as humans; in no way can socialism be achieved without coercion.

    I haven't even addressed how liberty is incompatible with socialism fundamentally, the so-called theoretical part of the debate. We can see from history how socialism devolves into tyranny, but in theory could it work? No. The reason is that socialism demands central planning, a confiscation of the wealth of private individuals to fund their initiatives, and thus, on principle, cannot sustain itself without coercing individual citizens. Coercion being the use of force or threat of force to achieve means. If individuals are free to the fruits of their labor, free to write and sign contracts, send their goods over borders and speak their mind, then they cannot be any form of socialist vanguard, or "community organization" that seeks to uplift the poor or whatnot, because that would infringe on the aforementioned freedoms demanded by libertarians.

    "Even the striving for equality by means of a directed economy can result only in an officially enforced inequality - an authoritarian determination of the status of each individual in the new hierarchical order." - Hayek

    Equality by definition requires authoritarian means because in a free world inequalities would arise out of differences in natural ability and motivation.

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    I'll once again stress what I said at the beginning of this debate: you're not a libertarian. So frankly you have no place telling those that are what they believe and who they should vote for.
    I once was a libertarian, and I still lean pretty libertarian. How about addressing my critiques instead of attacking my character? Typical diversion tactic.
    It was not part of their blood,
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    When the Saxon began to hate.

  5. #115
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    Re: Jill Stein

    I like her anti-establishment tone, and did support her during her last run until I found Gary Johnson. Stein is simply too liberal for my liking.
    "Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals."
    - Mark Twain
    Run your own nation, play Cybernations.

  6. #116
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    Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by iacardsfan View Post
    I like her anti-establishment tone, and did support her during her last run until I found Gary Johnson. Stein is simply too liberal for my liking.
    My take on her is that she wants to replace the established establishment with her own establishment.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  7. #117
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    Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    My take on her is that she wants to replace the established establishment with her own establishment.
    Yeah, and I don't want that.
    "Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals."
    - Mark Twain
    Run your own nation, play Cybernations.

  8. #118
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    Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by SlevinKelevra View Post
    as evidenced by the fact that on a website (in principle) dedicated to debating politics, you have posters who don't know who she is.
    Just because they're on this website doesn't mean they are politically savvy, lots of people around here are clueless.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  9. #119
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    My take on her is that she wants to replace the established establishment with her own establishment.

    true-rich lefty elitists whine about the elite when what they really want is to be top dog



  10. #120
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    Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    true-rich lefty elitists whine about the elite when what they really want is to be top dog
    how does that differ from rich republicans?
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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