View Poll Results: Did the USA cause the Ukraine Crisis.

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Thread: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202013.

  1. #81
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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    It was the Assistant Secretary of State of the United States, Victoria Nuland, former foreign policy advisor to Dick Cheney, the Darth Vadar of the W Bush administration. Cheney, the power behind the throne, with the rhetoric of the "mushroom cloud", led the US on the biggest wild goose chases in modern history, where modern history means since the rise of the origin of modern western intellectual endeavor, Greece. Yep, Victoria Nuland was his foreign policy advisor. Likely not really an advisor in the deep sense of the term, probably more like a sorceror's apprentice. Also of note. She is the wife of prominent neoconservative Robert Kagan. Actually in some ways, depending on how one wishes to view it, they make a very nice couple. I'm serious.

    There is a problem though. They are lost in an illusion.

    But any rate, that's who she is.


    OK. Let's educate ourselves a bit here. We need to get out of the world of CNN and Fox News and try to look at the world in a deeper sense, one that is not so much concerned about rah rah, we are the best. But rather a world that seeks to minimize, though not totally rid itself of such emotional influence, and think about the matter more in terms of pure power concepts. One in which the foreign policy of the real world functions.

    I really hate to inform you, but because of it's intrinsic nature, it is a very cold world. Its players do not care even about the collateral damage of innocent human beings when they perceive that their interests are at stake. I further hate to inform you that for the US, democracy is not the primary objective. It is really superficial. It is merely a tool to achieve control. Democracy is promoted because money can exert great, though not absolute, influence on democracies. And it is through that influence that the United States seeks to control Ukraine. Again, not in the absolute sense, but in the sense of achieving what it feels are it's objectives.

    Here's something from a person who has advised the US government on foreign policy and is considered an expert on matters of Ukraine. Please note, this was years ago in 2001, long before any of the present events took place.



    So back as far as at least 2001, there was this type of thinking in the US foreign policy establishment that Ukraine falling back into the Russian sphere of influence would be a threat to US interests in Europe. As a result of this, the US had worked actively in Ukraine to make sure that does not happen. That 5 billion dollars is one way in which the United States meant to keep that from happening. That is the reality.

    Now here is where it gets really interesting because here we can get a view, at least from the perspective of an influential person in the US foreign policy establishment, of what US goals are in a more real sense in terms of actual implementation.



    This is very important. These things should be read carefully. So here we can see that the US means to have a Ukraine that has a sustainable pro-Western orientation. Why is this important? Because, although Ukraine is directly on Russia border, the US is pursuing a foreign policy that is in direct conflict with the goals of Russian foreign policy in Ukraine. This indeed is the sore point for the Russians. They feel that although they are a nuclear armed state, the US disregards this, and right on its border vigorously pursues a foreign policy that is directly contrary to their policy.
    You know, you seem very logical, and I'd feel very inclined to hear you speak.

    But when you type with an attitude, such as you just did, I feel no need to hear you out. Check your tone.

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by 11Bravo View Post
    You know, you seem very logical, and I'd feel very inclined to hear you speak.

    But when you type with an attitude, such as you just did, I feel no need to hear you out. Check your tone.
    You just typed with an attitude. And quite frankly I don't appreciate people dictating to me how I should speak. Good luck to you.

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by 11Bravo View Post
    You know, you seem very logical, and I'd feel very inclined to hear you speak.

    But when you type with an attitude, such as you just did, I feel no need to hear you out. Check your tone.
    I think he's funny. He thinks he's being really deep and insightful, when what he's doing is simply the darker side of naiveté.

    The world isn't complex and messy, it's tight and simple and neat and everything needs an explanation that all ties back to a single meta-narrative. The notion here that people all over the world continually claim that the US is evilly plotting against them is because it typically plays well to low-information local audiences (think of it as the international version of the War on Women or the claim by Democrats that Republicans are trying to deny blacks voting rights and go back to the Jim Crow era) is discredited not because it is inaccurate, but because that doesn't reinforce the narrative..

    Most basically, trying to foment a war in Ukraine would require a foreign policy with a goal to be achieved through that end. We don't have a foreign policy right now (literally, the President has not released strategic guidance, there isn't one, it's all ad-hoc'ery). Accusing the US Embassy of honestly seeking months prior to the crises of trying to foment a civil war in Ukraine is like accusing the Secretary of Health and Human Services of being behind our secret efforts to establish a base on Pluto.
    Last edited by cpwill; 02-02-15 at 10:01 AM.

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    It is of no surprise that someone who feels that the US taxpayers should be used to put forward the interests of other countries first and US interests second would want to obfuscate how US foreign policy elites actually view the world.

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    You just typed with an attitude. And quite frankly I don't appreciate people dictating to me how I should speak. Good luck to you.
    Well it doesn't feel so good when it comes back to you, does it? You can dish it but you can't take it.

    All in all, I think that personal attacks should be avoided. Let's convey our points without them next time.

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    This one is worth repeating

    Furthermore, Yanukovych has repeatedly declared that Ukraine should stay politically neutral and may be unlikely to bring Ukraine into NATO. With 51 percent of Ukrainians viewing NATO unfavorably, the country’s path to NATO membership is unclear.

    The presence of the Russian Black Sea Fleet at a naval base in Sevastopol (in the Crimea, which has been Ukrainian territory since 1954) until 2017 also impedes Ukraine’s accession to NATO. There is no precedent for a NATO member hosting a non-NATO member military base.
    Now that he is gone, will the US make strong efforts to bring Ukraine into NATO?

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    It would be helpful if you left a link under quotes so the author/date/context etc. could be better understood and the text verified.


    Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet. -- Marine Corps General James 'Chaos' Mattis

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    It would be helpful if you left a link under quotes so the author/date/context etc. could be better understood and the text verified.
    OK. I really expected a bunch of negative reaction, so I didn't bother to do it. But since you are sincere, I will certainly do it in the future. I have been studying Ariel Cohen's work recently. I think it provides a good framework for understanding the motivations for U.S. foreign policy with regards to Ukraine.

    Also, if you really find the bold and color stuff too hard, I will stop that as well. Please accept my sincere apologies.

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    OK. I really expected a bunch of negative reaction, so I didn't bother to do it. But since you are sincere, I will certainly do it in the future. I have been studying Ariel Cohen's work recently. I think it provides a good framework for understanding the motivations for U.S. foreign policy with regards to Ukraine.
    But you don't use all of his ruminations. Much of what he says nowadays runs counter to his early musings.

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Also, if you really find the bold and color stuff too hard, I will stop that as well. Please accept my sincere apologies.
    Thank you. It just looks... sophomoric and really is difficult to follow. Others have commented on this as well. At any rate, the revert to normalcy is appreciated.


    Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet. -- Marine Corps General James 'Chaos' Mattis

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    But you don't use all of his ruminations. Much of what he says nowadays runs counter to his early musings.
    He has said quite a bit, so you can't expect all of it. Of course it is expected that people's opinions evolve, but he has remained a harsh Putin critic from the beginning until the present.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    Thank you. It just looks... sophomoric and really is difficult to follow. Others have commented on this as well. At any rate, the revert to normalcy is appreciated.
    You are quite welcome. Not a problem at all.

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