View Poll Results: Did the USA cause the Ukraine Crisis.

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Thread: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202013.

  1. #61
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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    Whatever the **** this is, it adds no value to what we already know in the spin game that is US news.
    I agree that US news is a spin game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    The US has kept an arm's length policy in Ukraine since the Reagan era
    Kind of difficult to quantify, but it has been of strategic interest to the US for some time. The US cannot help but be involved in Ukraine to some degree after it obtained it's independence. We would be stupid not to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    It appears, Obama, obsessed with his Peace Prize image decided to "bring democracy" to Ukraine by helping to depose a duly elected government on the basis of it was A corrupt and B, pro Moscow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    Nonetheless it was a boneheaded move by a rookie out to make a name for himself who went up against a grand master who has ruled with an iron fist, the most successful Russian leader since Stalin; the boy David taking on Goliath with no slingshot, no plan and no clue....just the audacity of stupid.
    I disagree it was a boneheaded move. It was characteristic Obama, brilliance but with significant flaws.

    It is brilliant in this sense. Obama likely knew that Putin was screwed no matter what he did.

    But let's step back.

    AGAIN, THE PRIMARY MOTIVATION WAS TO THWART THE RISE OF RUSSIAN POWER. DEMOCRACY WAS TO TOOL TO ACCOMPLISH THIS GOAL. THAT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER!!!!

    Now, back to the other point, it makes sense because Obama is a brilliant man. Part of that brilliance was his move to adopt a Robert Kagan-like solution to the problem of Putin. That is brilliant because Obama by appearance would not be expected make such a move. Using Nuland to put himself in position, he then went hard for the basket because he knew that no matter what, the US would be in the superior position in the end. A sure score. And actually as it stands, that is indeed so.

    However, it's glaring flaw is that it is taking place right on the border of a country that has the capability to destroy the United States. That is a big flaw. That is where Obama is a big bonehead. Perhaps the biggest in modern history if the worse case scenario comes to pass.

    But again, that is typical Obama.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    Putin knew he could roll into Crimea with impunity and did...the single greatest land grab in Europe since Hitler in 1939.....
    And that is where you are dead wrong. He did not do it with impunity. He did it because he was going to get his ass kicked no matter what he did. So what he did was take the route that was most likely to make Russia stronger in the long run. It makes total sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    And Obama whispers about "bringing democracy", while eroding the last vestiges of democracy from his own country
    That is not surprising because the primary motivation was not democracy. It was to thwart the rise of Russia.
    Last edited by MildSteel; 01-31-15 at 04:20 PM.

  2. #62
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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    The Vineyard of the Saker

    http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/20...nscript:Deputy Oleg Tsarov has the wordHonourable ColleaguesHonourable Vladimir VasiljevitchIn my role as a representative of the Ukrainian people……activists of the public organisation "Volya" turned to me……providing clear evidence……that within our territory……with support and direct participation…of the US Embassy in Kiev……the "TechCamp" project is realised……under which preparations are being made for a civil war in Ukraine.The "TechCamp" project prepares specialists for information warfare……and the discrediting of state institutions using modern media……potential revolutionaries……for organising protests…… and the toppling of the State Order.The project is currently overseen and under the responsibility……of the US ambassador to Ukraine……Geoffrey R. Pyatt. (Partial transcript, read the rest)

    Did the USA initiate the Ukraine crisis?
    Did the USA plan a Civil War?
    Have we improved the lot of Ukrainians thus far?
    Do the citizens of the USA know what Ukraine is about?
    Poll Question: Did the USA cause the Ukraine Crisis?

    Considering the stuff our government has done before it wouldn't surprise me if our government did stage a civil war in Ukraine.They stage coups and civil wars in the middle east, south America and other places, why would Europe be any different? It is funny that the Ukrainians have a coup by chasing out a democratically elected leader and its the Russians and rebels who are the bad guys. Its also amazing that Russia gets flak for its anti-homosexual propaganda laws. But yet a country that mistreats women and beheads homosexuals is our ally and almost nothing is said about that country. **** Russia and **** Ukraine. What those countries do is none of our ****ing business.No American tax dollar and life is worth that of the Ukrainians and Russians. I just hope the American people are not retarded enough to try to pull us into a war with war our waste billions of tax payer dollars getting involved.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I agree that US news is a spin game.



    Kind of difficult to quantify, but it has been of strategic interest to the US for some time. The US cannot help but be involved in Ukraine to some degree after it obtained it's independence. We would be stupid not to.





    I disagree it was a boneheaded move. It was characteristic Obama, brilliance but with significant flaws.

    It is brilliant in this sense. Obama likely knew that Putin was screwed no matter what he did.

    But let's step back.

    AGAIN, THE PRIMARY MOTIVATION WAS TO THWART THE RISE OF RUSSIAN POWER. DEMOCRACY WAS TO TOOL TO ACCOMPLISH THIS GOAL. THAT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER!!!!

    Now, back to the other point, it makes sense because Obama is a brilliant man. Part of that brilliance was his move to adopt a Robert Kagan-like solution to the problem of Putin. That is brilliant because Obama by appearance would not be expected make such a move. Using Nuland to put himself in position, he then went hard for the basket because he knew that no matter what, the US would be in the superior position in the end. A sure score. And actually as it stands, that is indeed so.

    However, it's glaring flaw is that it is taking place right on the border of a country that has the capability to destroy the United States. That is a big flaw. That is where Obama is a big bonehead. Perhaps the biggest in modern history if the worse case scenario comes to pass.

    But again, that is typical Obama.



    And that is where you are dead wrong. He did not do it with impunity. He did it because he was going to get his ass kicked no matter what he did. So what he did was take the route that was most likely to make Russia stronger in the long run. It makes total sense.


    That is not surprising because the primary motivation was not democracy. It was to thwart the rise of Russia.


    You lost me at "brilliance" ..

    clearly you have no idea what non biased means. Anyone who suggests Obama is brilliant at anything beside lying is likely in the employ of the White House.
    ""You know, when we sell to other countries, even if they're allies -- you never know about an ally. An ally can turn."
    Donald Trump, 11/23/17

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    You lost me at "brilliance" ..

    clearly you have no idea what non biased means. Anyone who suggests Obama is brilliant at anything beside lying is likely in the employ of the White House.
    No. It's true. Tell me, how many people that have a black father became President of the United States? That in itself requires quite a significant amount of brilliance.

  5. #65
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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    No. It's true. Tell me, how many people that have a black father became President of the United States? That in itself requires quite a significant amount of brilliance.


    WTF?

    I guess if you think getting elected on lies upon lies is brilliant then we have nothing further to say top each other. Presidents are remembered for their character not simply getting elected, even if it is a first, a claim most presidents can make. They are honored for their grit and accomplishments......

    Obama has one accomplishment......the most dishonest president in modern history. If lying is brilliance, then you are welcome to the delusion.

    Please go away now, your posts are dishonest and boring.
    ""You know, when we sell to other countries, even if they're allies -- you never know about an ally. An ally can turn."
    Donald Trump, 11/23/17

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    WTF?

    I guess if you think getting elected on lies upon lies is brilliant then we have nothing further to say top each other.
    You don't understand. It's different when you have a black father.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    Presidents are remembered for their character not simply getting elected, even if it is a first, a claim most presidents can make. They are honored for their grit and accomplishments......
    The only president we have ever had with character was the first one. And his character was so flawed that you really can't say he had character. The in truth, we have not had any presidents of character. A person of character likely would have no interest in being President of the United States.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    Obama has one accomplishment......the most dishonest president in modern history.
    That is not true. FDR presented a fabricated Nazi map to the public. That was certainly more dishonest than any thing that I can think of that Obama has done as president. It is not surprising that he lies. Politicians do that. It would be very difficult for someone to be President of the United States and not lie. Sometimes you have to lie to bewilder adversaries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    If lying is brilliance, then you are welcome to the delusion.
    No, lying is not brilliance. Obama's move with regards to Ukraine is brilliant in some sense. He has taken the majority western Ukraine for the West. That is actually a big accomplishment, considering that in my lifetime it has been essentially a Russian state. It came with a big long term price. That is it's flaw. The world became a more dangerous place to live as a result of what he has done.

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Since I have been reading Ariel Cohen's work. I thought I would share something of interest. It appears that Mr Cohen has had an axe to grind with Mr Putin for a while. This is from back in 2011.

    Whoever occupies the Oval Office is facing a complex system of U.S.–Russian relations. These include nuclear nonproliferation and arms control, the supply of U.S. and NATO troops in Afghanistan via Russian territory, human rights and Islamist extremism in Russia, the energy and sovereignty concerns of U.S. friends and allies, and the Iranian quest for weapons of mass destruction, to name just a few. The Obama Administration cannot address these issues by pretending that Medvedev and his narrow circle of supporters wield the real power. In fact, it is the Putin group—which includes the key energy, military and security services officials, businessmen, and the leadership of the United Russia ruling party—that exercises the ultimate power.

    Now Putin, no great friend of America, is likely to move back from the Prime Minister’s office to the Kremlin in the spring of 2012, raising tough questions about Obama’s Russian policy.
    Here he is making it clear that Putin is a problem for the US.

    Now he will go into an interesting exercise in which he basically contrasts Medvedev with Putin, i.e. Putin=bad, Medvedev=good.

    Putin has publicly disagreed with Medvedev, his handpicked successor, on a number of key policy issues, many of them vital to U.S. interests. While Medvedev has generally articulated positions which are considered liberal in Russia, Putin has consistently criticized the U.S.and stuck to the statist line. Some of the issues on which the two have apparent differences include the role of freedom in the country, the legacy of Joseph Stalin (Putin called him “an effective manager”), and the collapse of the Soviet Union (Putin called it “the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the twentieth century, while his protégé thinks the Bolshevik October putsch was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe for Russia).

    The two have also argued on modernization (Medvedev wants a broad-based rejuvenation of the state, including the political system, while his mentor emphasizes boosting Russia’s military capabilities through science and technology – just as the czars and the Soviets did); Libya (Medvedev wants to work with the allies, while Putin blames the U.S. for destabilization of the Middle East); and persecution of former oil magnate Mikhail Khodorkovsky (Medvedev said that the man does not represent any danger to the public, while Putin intervened in the ongoing trial and demanded that he continue to sit in jail).
    It is clear that Mr Cohen does not like Mr Putin's views one bit.

    Here's more

    Putin also supports “friendship” with China and Venezuela and good relations with Iran. At various points Putin accused the U.S. of supporting Islamist terrorists in the North Caucasus in order to dismantle Russia, illegally intervening in Iraq, being responsible for the global economic recession, and toppling regimes in the Middle East through promotion of social media. Putin pays lip service to the fight against corruption, and directly intervenes in prominent court cases.

    Putin formed his worldview in the KGB and by reading Russian nationalist philosophers, including some with fascist sympathies. Pro-Putin elites include the top officers of the security services and the armed forces, the military-industrial complex, state company bosses, and a part of the business class. They are a mix of statists, imperialists, and nationalists. They support a future for Russia that is rooted in its imperial past and Christian Orthodoxy.
    That's heavy duty stuff. Clearly Putin is a big enemy of US interests in Cohen's mind.

    This is the type of thing Putin sees when he looks at the US foreign policy establishment. So he has to think about all of that. But that is the nature of foreign policy at that level. It is not a game for the faint of heart.

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Some thought it strange when Hillary Clinton appointed Victoria Nuland back in 2011. Here's an interesting piece:

    The strange appointment of Victoria Nuland as State Department Spokesperson - WhirledView

    Is Hillary asleep at the switch? What is going on here?

    Earlier this week, Josh Rogin at FP and Eric Martin at Progressive Realist both flagged the curious appointment of Victoria Nuland as the next State Department Spokesperson to fill P.J. Crowley’s shoes.

    Martin questions whether this has foreign policy implications, in particular the replacement of an anti-torture appointee with someone who served as Principal Deputy National Security Advisor to Vice President Cheney.


    Boy, Obama really threw people off with that one!!!!

    Like I said, it was brilliant. What Obama did was figure out a way to put Putin in his place.

    Consider this from Hillary back in 2012

    “There is a move to re-Sovietize the region,” Hillary Clinton said in 2012, when she was still U.S. Secretary of State. “It’s not going to be called that. It’s going to be called a Customs Union, it will be called Eurasian Union and all of that.”

    “But let’s make no mistake about it,” she added. “We know what the goal is and we are trying to figure out effective ways to slow down or prevent it.”
    So essentially Victoria Nuland was brought on for this purpose.

    Here's what Ariel Cohen thinks about Putin's Eurasian Union

    Russian President Vladimir Putin is seeking economic and political alliances to counterbalance the influence of the U.S., the European Union, China, and transnational Islamism. Putin is determined to strengthen Moscow’s hegemony in the “near abroad”—the post-Soviet space. One of the instruments he has created to achieve that strategic objective is the Russia-dominated Eurasian Union (EAU)
    The EAU is an anti-Western civilizational project being pushed by leaders whose world outlook was formed in the Soviet era and who seek to return the region to the past.
    That's basically why Victoria Nuland was brought on board in the Obama administration. That's what Ukraine is basically abouit from the US point of view.

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Putin's dream - the Eurasian Economic Union - (actually the brainchild of Kazakhstan President Nursultan Nazarbayev in 1994) was doomed the moment Putin invaded and illegally annexed Ukraine's Crimea on the fabricated grounds of "protecting Russian speakers". Kazakh President Nazarbayev and Belarus President Alexander Lukashenko both immediately realized that their respective nations were also highly vulnerable to this Putin ploy since both nations have significant populations of ethic Russians/Russian speakers. If it happened to Ukraine, a Slavic country and a former SSR, it could also happen to them.

    Nazarbayev and Lukashenko have consistently defended Ukrainian sovereignty. Relations between these EEU members and Russia have soured since Crimea and Eastern Ukraine has only served to exacerbate the distrust. Nazarbayev has stressed that Kazakhstan will leave the EEU if its interests are infringed -- an apparent reference to the Russian majority in its territorial north and the Kremlin's stated aim of protecting its cross-border kin. With Crimea and eastern Ukraine in mind, Belarus recently amended its law concerning foreign (read Russian) aggression. The new law takes effect today (2.1.2015)

    Under New Belarus Law, 'Little Green Men' Would Mean War

    February 01, 2015

    The amendments stipulate that the "sending by a foreign country or countries or on behalf of a foreign country or countries of armed groups, irregular armed forces, mercenary groups or regular armed forces, who use arms against Republic of Belarus" will lead to an announcement of a state of war.


    Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet. -- Marine Corps General James 'Chaos' Mattis

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    The poll results surprise me. I thought a lot more people knew what was going on in Ukraine would swallow Russian propaganda and my conspiracy nonsense.
    Fixed that for ya Dave


    Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet. -- Marine Corps General James 'Chaos' Mattis

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