View Poll Results: Did the USA cause the Ukraine Crisis.

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Thread: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202013.

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Good point. The Middle East is a good example as well. Eisenhower warned about the military industrial complex.

    Yeah, but he said this to MS.


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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by 11Bravo View Post
    Who was that speaking?

    Also, giving 5 billion dollars to a government that wants to keep Democracy, rather than a Russian invasion, seems okay to me. It's not like the CIA sent in rebels to fight anyone.

    Did this actually happen? Was 5 billion given?
    The USA spent Billions of dollars to get rid of a democracy. Yanukovych was democratically elected.
    Victoria Nuland admitted the USA spent $5 billion in Ukraine. Example, many NGOs set up through the
    NED, etc. The Ukraine speaker revealed the entire plan to destabilize the gov't and initiate a coup three
    months before it occured and if you read the speech he made, you'll realize he is either the best predictor
    of the futue in history or had accurate foreknowledge of USA plans out of the USA Embassy. This is just
    more of the consistently ignorant USA policy that has run rampant since GW Bush (the first moron). It is,
    however, an incredibly profitable policy for CONNECTED Corporate USA. Not so much for the taxpaying
    citizen. We don't seem to give a damn if a lot of people die, starve or suffer serious deprivation. It doesn't
    even show up in profit/loss reports.

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    The US bullies people around. So yeah, other countries have to take that into consideration. But even when it is not unnecessary bullying, but a legitimate exercise in protecting self interest, that has to be taken into account. It's just like in the ME, the US has to take the Israelis interest interests into account. Foreign policy is not formed in a vacuum. Sometimes the interests coincide, sometimes they don't.
    The difference is that Ukraine is Europe entirely, while Russia is Asian (territorially speaking) for the most part. So again why should Ukraine worry about the bully Russia when its interests are pro EU and US?
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    The problem is that there are quite a few people in Ukraine that prefer to be aligned with Russia.
    JFK defeated Richard Nixon in 1960 with just a 0.1% edge. US and world history would be vastly different if democracy awarded victory to "quite a few" at the expense of the majority.

    You seem to always ignore the fact that the - clear majority - in Ukraine wish closer ties with the West. This sentiment was factually established with the 2014 Ukraine presidential/legislative elections in which pro-Europe candidates/parties won sweeping electoral victories over pro-Russia opposition blocs. The lopsided and indisputable election results amount to a mandate from the majority of Ukrainian citizens.


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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by 11Bravo View Post
    Who was that speaking?
    It was the Assistant Secretary of State of the United States, Victoria Nuland, former foreign policy advisor to Dick Cheney, the Darth Vadar of the W Bush administration. Cheney, the power behind the throne, with the rhetoric of the "mushroom cloud", led the US on the biggest wild goose chases in modern history, where modern history means since the rise of the origin of modern western intellectual endeavor, Greece. Yep, Victoria Nuland was his foreign policy advisor. Likely not really an advisor in the deep sense of the term, probably more like a sorceror's apprentice. Also of note. She is the wife of prominent neoconservative Robert Kagan. Actually in some ways, depending on how one wishes to view it, they make a very nice couple. I'm serious.

    There is a problem though. They are lost in an illusion.

    But any rate, that's who she is.
    Quote Originally Posted by 11Bravo View Post
    Also, giving 5 billion dollars to a government that wants to keep Democracy, rather than a Russian invasion, seems okay to me. It's not like the CIA sent in rebels to fight anyone. Did this actually happen? Was 5 billion given?
    OK. Let's educate ourselves a bit here. We need to get out of the world of CNN and Fox News and try to look at the world in a deeper sense, one that is not so much concerned about rah rah, we are the best. But rather a world that seeks to minimize, though not totally rid itself of such emotional influence, and think about the matter more in terms of pure power concepts. One in which the foreign policy of the real world functions.

    I really hate to inform you, but because of it's intrinsic nature, it is a very cold world. Its players do not care even about the collateral damage of innocent human beings when they perceive that their interests are at stake. I further hate to inform you that for the US, democracy is not the primary objective. It is really superficial. It is merely a tool to achieve control. Democracy is promoted because money can exert great, though not absolute, influence on democracies. And it is through that influence that the United States seeks to control Ukraine. Again, not in the absolute sense, but in the sense of achieving what it feels are it's objectives.

    Here's something from a person who has advised the US government on foreign policy and is considered an expert on matters of Ukraine. Please note, this was years ago in 2001, long before any of the present events took place.

    The future of Ukraine as an independent and democratic state is important to American interests in Europe. The survival of an independent and democratic Ukraine is also crucial to Russia's future as a democracy. The re-absorption of Ukraine into Russia' fold would bring about a new, quasi-imperial and undemocratic Great Russia. Such a development could destroy the post-Cold War status quo in Europe, revive a threat to NATO allies in Europe and worsen U.S.-Russian relations.
    So back as far as at least 2001, there was this type of thinking in the US foreign policy establishment that Ukraine falling back into the Russian sphere of influence would be a threat to US interests in Europe. As a result of this, the US had worked actively in Ukraine to make sure that does not happen. That 5 billion dollars is one way in which the United States meant to keep that from happening. That is the reality.

    Now here is where it gets really interesting because here we can get a view, at least from the perspective of an influential person in the US foreign policy establishment, of what US goals are in a more real sense in terms of actual implementation.

    It is in U.S. interests to support Ukraine's independence, territorial integrity, democracy, economic reforms based on the rule of law, and sustainable pro-Western orientation.
    This is very important. These things should be read carefully. So here we can see that the US means to have a Ukraine that has a sustainable pro-Western orientation. Why is this important? Because, although Ukraine is directly on Russia border, the US is pursuing a foreign policy that is in direct conflict with the goals of Russian foreign policy in Ukraine. This indeed is the sore point for the Russians. They feel that although they are a nuclear armed state, the US disregards this, and right on its border vigorously pursues a foreign policy that is directly contrary to their policy.
    Last edited by MildSteel; 01-30-15 at 11:36 PM.

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    I do not believe the CIA "caused" the uprising and civil war. I think the uprising happened, then the CIA backed some elements of it. Now I think they are supporting the Ukrainian gov with intelligence support.


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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by 11Bravo View Post
    Who was that speaking?

    Also, giving 5 billion dollars to a government that wants to keep Democracy, rather than a Russian invasion, seems okay to me. It's not like the CIA sent in rebels to fight anyone.

    Did this actually happen? Was 5 billion given?
    I am sorry I am having to break this up into two parts, but I think it is important that we educate ourselves here so we can talk about the matter in an intelligent, real sense.

    So let's look further. Again, this is the same person's thoughts

    To achieve this, the new Bush Administration should:

    *Recognize the strategic importance of Ukraine, its continuous pro-Western orientation, as well as the threats to its independence. The Administration should utilize economic and political tools to support Ukrainian sovereignty and prevent its falling into the Russian orbit.
    Because it has been said twice, we can see the emphasis that this person feels on keeping Ukraine out of Russia's sphere of influence and sustaining a pro-Western influence.

    How does he purpose that this be done, in the real sense?

    These tools include "traditional" democracy assistance through the National Endowment for Democracy, the International Republican Institute, the National Democratic Institute and International Foundation for Electoral Systems; international broadcasting such as Radio Liberty and Voice of America; technical assistance to speed up restructuring of the economy, and military-to-military training and contacts.
    So, the 5 billion dollars went to these places, that this person mentioned in 2001. Please remember, THE MONEY WENT TO KEEP UKRAINE OUT OF RUSSIA'S SPHERE OF INFLUENCE AND TO SUSTAIN A PRO-WESTERN ORIENTATION THERE.
    Last edited by MildSteel; 01-30-15 at 11:37 PM.

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by 11Bravo View Post
    Who was that speaking?

    Also, giving 5 billion dollars to a government that wants to keep Democracy, rather than a Russian invasion, seems okay to me. It's not like the CIA sent in rebels to fight anyone.

    Did this actually happen? Was 5 billion given?
    I know I may be beating this in the ground, but I want this point to be made clear:

    THE PROMOTION OF DEMOCRACY IN UKRAINE IS A TOOL BY WHICH THE UNITED STATES SEEKS TO KEEP UKRAINE OUT THE RUSSIAN SPHERE OF INFLUENCE AND TO MAINTAIN A SUSTAINABLE WESTERN ORIENTATION THERE. IN OTHER WORDS, DEMOCRACY IS A MEANS TO THE END OF KEEPING UKRAINE AWAY FROM RUSSIA AND WITH THE WEST. IT IS NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

    Again, recall

    The Administration should utilize economic and political tools to support Ukrainian sovereignty and prevent its falling into the Russian orbit. These tools include "traditional" democracy assistance through the National Endowment for Democracy, the International Republican Institute, the National Democratic Institute and International Foundation for Electoral Systems; international broadcasting such as Radio Liberty and Voice of America; technical assistance to speed up restructuring of the economy, and military-to-military training and contacts.
    This is how US foreign policy in Ukraine should be properly understood. Then everything becomes clear.
    Last edited by MildSteel; 01-30-15 at 11:56 PM.

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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    So, the 5 billion dollars went to these places, that this person mentioned in 2001.
    Do you have any idea what you are talking about? $5 billion dollars is more than Israel, Egypt, Jordan, and Kosovo (the top four recipients of US aid in FY 2001) received collectively.

    Do the research. US fiscal aid to Ukraine in FY 2001 totaled $178 million dollars.


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    Re: Must Watch: Ukranian Deputy: US to stage a civil war in Ukraine! This was 11/202

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    Do you have any idea what you are talking about? $5 billion dollars is more than Israel, Egypt, Jordan, and Kosovo (the top four recipients of US aid in FY 2001) received collectively.

    Do the research. US fiscal aid to Ukraine in FY 2001 totaled $178 million dollars.
    I don't know if you are really serious, but just so no one is confused, the 5 billion dollars that the Assistant Secretary of State of the United States is referring to is the total amount that has been spent over the years since Ukrainian independence.

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