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Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

Is there a moral obligation to repay money you borrow?

  • If you borrow money, you are morally obligated to repay it.

    Votes: 91 92.9%

  • I feel no moral obligation to repay loans I've taken out

    Votes: 7 7.1%
  • Total voters
    98
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
It's wrong for you. It is wrong for me. It is wrong in the free market. Arguing that you only have to be moral if everyone else is moral proves that you don't understand morality. It is a revelation of your character, not anyone else's. This isn't about financial decisions. This is about whether or not you feel compelled to do what you have agreed to do. The bank cut you the check like they agreed to do. Their morality isn't the issue. Yours is.
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I never mentioned everyone else, you are adding that aspect to my argument where I never did. So in the beginning it shows you do not understand right and wrong. So when you can correctly put my point of view in your own words, you have nothing but a straw man
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
Banks have gone out of business and failed to fulfill their obligations because of that. It isn't moral for a bank to keep money that it accepted from you with a condition to repay just like it is immoral for you to do the same. Just between you and me, I trust the bank to repay money I deposit way, WAY more than I would trust you to repay money you have borrowed.
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Thata's just another demonstration of how supremely idiotic your argument is because my history shows that I have a 100% rate of paying back loans while banks do not have a 100% rate of repaying their loans.


By comparison to you, every bank I've done business with gas been a paragon of virtue and morality. Not once have I had reason to believe they would willingly renege on their obligations just because it suits them. But I believe you would.
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By comparison to me, banks are the equivalent of highway robbers and they have a long history of not paying back what they owe
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
Exactly, national and societal interest guides my moral feelings and actions far more than some institution that only exists to make money.

Thank you for mentioning that very important point.
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Upholding your word has nothing to do with who exactly the other party is. When you make a promise you should try to hold to it. Period. There is nothing situational about this.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
It's not a "moral obligation to an istitution". It is a moral obligation to do what you agree to do, to mean what you say and to live up to your agreements. It isn't about the lender, their morals or lack thereof. It is about YOUR morality. Or lack thereof.
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If this is truly your concern you phrased the OP very poorly. I live up to my personal agreements when possible. (Not possible would have to be something pretty major like hospitalization or some other catastrophic circumstance).

However legal agreements and personal agreements are not the same thing.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

sangha said:
My credit score is perfect



I said that the contract does not require one to repay and I am right. The reason why collection mechanisms are a part of the contract is because both the lender and the borrower have agreed to those terms.



The fact that the lender agreed to the terms means that they have agreed to accept the property in order to settle the loan. Holding the bank to the terms that *it* agreed to is not immoral. Only the morally depraved would think that the borrower is the only one who must be held to the terms of an agreenment, but not the lender
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So much rationalization. The fact that there are consequences for breaking your contract doesn't relieve you of the moral obligation to keep your word and promise.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Henrin said:
And people being true to their word is a good thing to promote. Btw, the last part about soley for profit is an example of what I have observed about liberals since '98.
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Me being true to my word is not an issue, when I make a promise I keep it.

The problem is you think a legal deal is the same thing as a promise.

Peoples inability to tell the difference is the real issue in this thread and their ignorance is why I've been called all sorts of names for basically no reason
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
If this is truly your concern you phrased the OP very poorly. I live up to my personal agreements when possible. (Not possible would have to be something pretty major like hospitalization or some other catastrophic circumstance).

However legal agreements and personal agreements are not the same thing.
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In addition, the legal agreement known as a mortgage contains several options to satisfy the loan, including transferring the property to the bank (ie foreclosure). The borrower is not the only one who is held to the terms of the agreement; so is the lender and the lender agreed to accept the property as payment so there's nothing wrong with holding the lender to that part of the agreement
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
It's wrong for you. It is wrong for me. It is wrong in the free market. Arguing that you only have to be moral if everyone else is moral proves that you don't understand morality. It is a revelation of your character, not anyone else's. This isn't about financial decisions. This is about whether or not you feel compelled to do what you have agreed to do. The bank cut you the check like they agreed to do. Their morality isn't the issue. Yours is.
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I've never argued that. My argument is that if we are going to start pinning morality on the financial decisions of persons, then this is a great time to start really discussing morality in the free market (or the lack there of).
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
If this is truly your concern you phrased the OP very poorly. I live up to my personal agreements when possible. (Not possible would have to be something pretty major like hospitalization or some other catastrophic circumstance).

However legal agreements and personal agreements are not the same thing.
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But the morality of doing what you agree to do isn't conditional on whether "it's business" or "personal" or whether it is a business or person that you decide to welsh on. It is about you having the integrity, honor and character to live up to your agreements. Clearly you do not.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
Me being true to my word is not an issue, when I make a promise I keep it.

The problem is you think a legal deal is the same thing as a promise.

Peoples inability to tell the difference is the real issue in this thread and their ignorance is why I've been called all sorts of names for basically no reason
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Agreeing to pay back a loan is a promise.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
So much rationalization. The fact that there are consequences for breaking your contract doesn't relieve you of the moral obligation to keep your word and promise.
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defaulting on a loan is not "breaking your contract" (ie failure to perform)
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
But the morality of doing what you agree to do isn't conditional on whether "it's business" or "personal" or whether it is a business or person that you decide to welsh on. It is about you having the integrity, honor and character to live up to your agreements. Clearly you do not.
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When its a business decision its not a moral decision. Moral decisions are based on the good of individuals or the species. Business decisions are just things we have to do because we inherited some economic structure we were born into.

When its a moral thing, I go through great lengths to satisfy those requirements, even to the point if personal sacrifice as its more important than stuff or money.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
Me being true to my word is not an issue, when I make a promise I keep it.

The problem is you think a legal deal is the same thing as a promise.

Peoples inability to tell the difference is the real issue in this thread and their ignorance is why I've been called all sorts of names for basically no reason
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Okay, so what if a bank refuses to give you a loan until you verbally promise to pay it back?

Would that make you feel any more responsibility to repay your debts (assuming you agreed to promise to repay the loan)?


BTW - when I agree to do anything, I take it as a promise.

The fact that you seem to have levels of responsibility...that you feel you are safe from karma or morality simply because you did not use the word 'promise' - speaks volumes about you.

'Hey, I never promised to drive you to the hospital...I just said I would.'.
 
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Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

whysoserious said:
I've never argued that. My argument is that if we are going to start pinning morality on the financial decisions of persons, then this is a great time to start really discussing morality in the free market (or the lack there of).
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It's not about financial decisions. It is about being honest and of sufficient character to fulfill obligations you willingly agree to fulfill. Believing it's OK to welsh on a loan from a business because it suits you is a revelation of your character, not the character of the lender.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

DA60 said:
Okay, so what if a bank refuses to give you a loan until you verbally promise to pay it back?

Would that make you feel any more responsibility to repay your debts?
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There is no true entity to accept that promise just an entity born of paperwork and is not something organic. A business has no mind or soul so there is nothing to receive that promise.

What you ask is literally impossible to do. (I am of course assuming you want me to mean the words I say)
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
So much rationalization. The fact that there are consequences for breaking your contract doesn't relieve you of the moral obligation to keep your word and promise.
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defaulting on a loan does not "break the contract"

You have to make up that BS because you want to absolve the lender of any duty to abide by the terms of the agreement it entered into - an agreement that allows the borrower to settle the loan through foreclosure
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

whysoserious said:
I've never argued that. My argument is that if we are going to start pinning morality on the financial decisions of persons, then this is a great time to start really discussing morality in the free market (or the lack there of).
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Strawman...
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
It's not about financial decisions. It is about being honest and of sufficient character to fulfill obligations you willingly agree to fulfill.
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Transferring the collateral to the lender is one way to fulfill the obligations the borrower agreed to fulfill.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Henrin said:
Strawman...
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It's hard for me to lay a straw man if I am discussing my own arguments, when by definition, a straw man would require me to be talking about someone else's argument.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
When its a business decision its not a moral decision. Moral decisions are based on the good of individuals or the species. Business decisions are just things we have to do because we inherited some economic structure we were born into.

When its a moral thing, I go through great lengths to satisfy those requirements, even to the point if personal sacrifice as its more important than stuff or money.
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It's not about the decision. It's not about whether it's business or personal. It is about you doing what you agree to do. If you enter into an agreement to borrow money and the lender writes you a check that you have cashed, they lived up to their obligation. You don't have any excuse for refusing to live up to yours. How does it feel to be LESS moral than a mortgage company?
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
It's not about financial decisions. It is about being honest and of sufficient character to fulfill obligations you willingly agree to fulfill. Believing it's OK to welsh on a loan from a business because it suits you is a revelation of your character, not the character of the lender.
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Well, it absolutely is a financial decision. Just as a business deciding to repay a loan is. Or a business deciding to cut employee hours so it doesn't have to give them health insurance. Or a business deciding to pay employees minimum wage that isn't livable. Or a business that overworks its employees.

If you want to talk about morality in financial decisions, I'm ready Papa Bull. You say the word... let's go.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

whysoserious said:
It's hard for me to lay a straw man if I am discussing my own arguments, when by definition, a straw man would require me to be talking about someone else's argument.
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Well, ok, but it hasn't got a thing to with the topic regardless.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
It's not about the decision. It's not about whether it's business or personal. It is about you doing what you agree to do. If you enter into an agreement to borrow money and the lender writes you a check that you have cashed, they lived up to their obligation. You don't have any excuse for refusing to live up to yours. How does it feel to be LESS moral than a mortgage company?
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It is absolutely about those things. Those sorts of distinctions are the very basis of moral thought.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
If you enter into an agreement to borrow money and the lender writes you a check that you have cashed, they lived up to their obligation.
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This is a lie

Under the agreement that the lender freely entered into, the lender is obligated to accept the collateral to settle the loan. Their obligations do not end when they write a check and your desire to absolve them of their obligations is immoral.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

whysoserious said:
It's hard for me to lay a straw man if I am discussing my own arguments, when by definition, a straw man would require me to be talking about someone else's argument.
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Whether or not you were referencing someone else's argument or not, you nailed the real meaning of "strawman".
 
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