View Poll Results: Is there a moral obligation to repay money you borrow?

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  • If you borrow money, you are morally obligated to repay it.

    110 34.48%
  • I feel no moral obligation to repay loans I've taken out

    209 65.52%
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Thread: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

  1. #891
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Everyone is responsible except the people that signed for the loans they defaulted on by your way of thinking. I think it's hilarious that you've gone to such extremes to make excuses for the idiots/crooks that stopped paying their mortgages while living rent free for 1-2 years.
    Frankly I do agree some borrowers have unethically exploited the system to delay foreclosures. The loan document says if you don't pay, you get kicked out, lose the house. So they should have delivered the keys at some point, and moved on with their lives. Not doing so is IMO immoral unless the borrower had a legitimate dispute with the lender, were current, etc. Not many of these examples..

    But I look at it kind of this way. If the bank instead had a POLICY of leaving the cash drawers open at night and the front door to the bank unlocked, yes, the thieves who walked in and stole the money are criminals who should be prosecuted and sent to jail, but I have a hard time finding any sympathy for the bank who set their "security" up like that.

    These lenders literally couldn't be bothered with the crystal clear SHALL legal requirements of mortgages and home loans and what it takes to foreclose etc. And it wasn't oversight - this was POLICY to ignore these things. It was POLICY to fraudulently process the foreclosure docs, POLICY to not bother securing the original notes, etc.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    What part of this are you unable to comprehend:

    "Foreclosures are, and have been, the epicenter of the collapse of the housing and credit markets and overall economy."

    Tell me which big words are confusing you and I'll see if I can help you understand what they mean.
    The word you're confusing is "epicenter." Just read the whole article and come back if you still aren't clear on it.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Frankly I do agree some borrowers have unethically exploited the system to delay foreclosures. The loan document says if you don't pay, you get kicked out, lose the house. So they should have delivered the keys at some point, and moved on with their lives. Not doing so is IMO immoral unless the borrower had a legitimate dispute with the lender, were current, etc. Not many of these examples..

    But I look at it kind of this way. If the bank instead had a POLICY of leaving the cash drawers open at night and the front door to the bank unlocked, yes, the thieves who walked in and stole the money are criminals who should be prosecuted and sent to jail, but I have a hard time finding any sympathy for the bank who set their "security" up like that.

    These lenders literally couldn't be bothered with the crystal clear SHALL legal requirements of mortgages and home loans and what it takes to foreclose etc. And it wasn't oversight - this was POLICY to ignore these things. It was POLICY to fraudulently process the foreclosure docs, POLICY to not bother securing the original notes, etc.
    allow me to offer an alternate perspective of this
    the borrowers who opted to continue to reside while they were in default of their mortgages were a good thing for the lenders in many instances
    obviously, when so many distressed properties come on the market at the same time, the supply exceeds demand, driving the values down, even at liquidation value
    thus, it was in the lenders' interest to not overwhelm the market place with so many distress/foreclosure sales
    and then there is the aspect of care and preservation of the banks' collateral: those homes
    without residents, those houses were susceptible to damage from vandals and vagrants, causing the lenders to incur costs to try to secure them
    those empty properties also had to be winterized, which was not required with a family continuing to reside there
    it also provided the defaulting debtors with an opportunity to place the home on the market and arrange a short sale, thereby saving the bank the same effort
    those residents were also better positioned to participate in HAMP, whose rollout was probably executed even worse than the website for Obamacare
    while you see those defaulted borrowers as benefitting from not having to pay rents, the reality was the banks also benefitted from not having to incur more costs to preserve their collateral while simultaneously allowing the market to better absorb the discounted housing at better prices than would otherwise have been experienced
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    The word you're confusing is "epicenter." Just read the whole article and come back if you still aren't clear on it.
    Wow. I posted the exact quote and it's like you can't read English at all. I'd post it again but I don't think you'd be any more apt to read and comprehend that sentence the second time.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    allow me to offer an alternate perspective of this
    the borrowers who opted to continue to reside while they were in default of their mortgages were a good thing for the lenders in many instances
    obviously, when so many distressed properties come on the market at the same time, the supply exceeds demand, driving the values down, even at liquidation value
    thus, it was in the lenders' interest to not overwhelm the market place with so many distress/foreclosure sales
    and then there is the aspect of care and preservation of the banks' collateral: those homes
    without residents, those houses were susceptible to damage from vandals and vagrants, causing the lenders to incur costs to try to secure them
    those empty properties also had to be winterized, which was not required with a family continuing to reside there
    it also provided the defaulting debtors with an opportunity to place the home on the market and arrange a short sale, thereby saving the bank the same effort
    those residents were also better positioned to participate in HAMP, whose rollout was probably executed even worse than the website for Obamacare
    while you see those defaulted borrowers as benefitting from not having to pay rents, the reality was the banks also benefitted from not having to incur more costs to preserve their collateral while simultaneously allowing the market to better absorb the discounted housing at better prices than would otherwise have been experienced
    I looked at some of these homes a few years ago when I was buying. The people living in them trashed them and many were stripped of anything that would have been of value. Seems they didn't care what shape they left the house in since it was going to be owned by evil banks. What else could we expect from deadbeat chiseled and scammers?
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Irrational strawman. Yours, of course.

    I was commenting on this statement: "Most people are not sophisticated enough to know how soon - or even whether - they can realistically pay back a loan".
    You know exactly what I was pointing to in your comments, twice it has been highlighted and it is you who is hypocritically avoiding your previous "thought". No one knows what there income will be, especially in a crash. You are still dancing from your irrational idea.
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Difficult to pay? You mean like the lender picks up and moves in the middle of the night with no forwarding address?
    No. Like you want to pay and offer to pay but their minimum payment is too high so they asses no payment charges, etc. That can screw with people big time.
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Wow. I posted the exact quote and it's like you can't read English at all. I'd post it again but I don't think you'd be any more apt to read and comprehend that sentence the second time.
    Ok, I'll help you out- the epicenter of something isn't the cause of an earthquake, it is the center of the devastation caused by an earthquake. Now, with that in mind, re-read your source.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    Ok, I'll help you out- the epicenter of something isn't the cause of an earthquake, it is the center of the devastation caused by an earthquake. Now, with that in mind, re-read your source.
    Center. Point of origin. Mortgage foreclosure a were it.

    I led you to water. Stuck your face in it and you still died of thirst. Now I'm just beating a dead horse.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    I have a twist on this that may or may not have been discussed already.

    Suppose you have a loan with a co-signer - are you morally obligated to keep up with payments on that loan so as not to negatively impact the co-signer?
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