View Poll Results: Is there a moral obligation to repay money you borrow?

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  • If you borrow money, you are morally obligated to repay it.

    110 34.48%
  • I feel no moral obligation to repay loans I've taken out

    209 65.52%
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Thread: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

  1. #871
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    There wouldn't have been a financial crisis if there wasn't an avalanche of borrowers defaulting on their mortgages. But since you have no use for the concept of personal responsibility, you can't imagine how we could hold the millions of deadbeats that defaulted on their loans responsible for the economic crash that caused. That would be expecting people to be personally responsible. Can't be having that, huh? Your utter contempt for personal responsibility is noted. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
    People couldn't have "strategically" defaulted on the loans when the market was rising. It was only after the system was collapsing that there would have been any strategy to the defaults. While I agree that people should pay their bills--I wouldn't have defaulted if I were underwater during all that as a choice--you are putting the cart before the horse on this aspect of the Great Recession.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I can only shake my head and wonder how in the world you could possibly assume that the flood of mortgage defaults that fueled the financial crisis as mortgage backed securities became worthless were actually just a symptom of the financial crisis instead of the cause. You are basically trying to assert that people defaulted on their mortgages because the banks were heavily invested in them. How much the banks were invested in mortgages had no bearing whatsoever on whether Joe Blow, you or anyone else was going to stop making mortgage payments.

    Stats showed that, on average, foreclosures occurred on people that hadn't made a mortgage payment in over 500 days. That's about a year and a half of living free rent at the expense of the mortgage company and ultimately everyone else in the country as the losses spread around and we all shared the pain. There's not much difference between that and outright stealing.
    "Stats showed that, on average, foreclosures occurred on people that hadn't made a mortgage payment in over 500 days. "

    You're getting attacked left and right, and yet you're the only one who keeps posting things that are true and that nobody else seems to know.
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Like I said, your liberal contempt for the concept of personal responsibility is on display. It's a philosophical difference between us that makes it impossible to agree on this. You want to hold all the people who shrugged their shoulders and walked out on their obligations harmless. I know they caused a whole lot of suffering for a whole lot of people because it profited them to bail on their personal obligations, undertaken legally and willingly. Here's to me and f*** you. It's the liberal mantra, it seems.
    We might be able to agree there's a middle ground here, but you've proved unwilling to lay any but the most incidental blame on the people in charge of making loans to these people.

    I'd love to be a lender with you as a boss. I would extend loans to anyone who walked in my door, make record bonuses, and when all my borrowers started defaulting, blame it on them and you'd believe me. It would really be a dream job. And the thing is, that's how the system worked during the bubble. The bosses and the system as a whole literally showered lenders like me with record bonuses, lenders whose ONLY concern was closing any loan that could possibly fit into the "hold your nose and stamp approved" box, and when that wouldn't work, the lenders fudged the numbers until the loan DID fit into the box.

    That's the people who get no blame in your world. It's really amazing.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    There wouldn't have been a financial crisis without a WORLDWIDE debt and housing bubble. When that collapsed the defaults were inevitable.

    And what I'm doing is placing the "personal responsibility" burden on the lenders. It is their JOB to make good loans, get adequate security, to decent credit risks, with an adequate loss reserve. If you're a lender depending on "personal responsibility" of strangers with dodgy credit and no history of repaying loans that require maybe half their paycheck each month, on housing prices maybe double historical averages based on income, etc. you're an idiot and when your bank fails, look in the dang mirror.
    Right.... and it's not the borrower's job to repay loans they took willingly and freely.... Like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Declan View Post
    People couldn't have "strategically" defaulted on the loans when the market was rising. It was only after the system was collapsing that there would have been any strategy to the defaults. While I agree that people should pay their bills--I wouldn't have defaulted if I were underwater during all that as a choice--you are putting the cart before the horse on this aspect of the Great Recession.
    Declan - nobody faced foreclosure because they were underwater. In fact, you can be seriously underwater and still continue to live in your home for many years until the value increases while the principal balance decreases.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Declan - nobody faced foreclosure because they were underwater. In fact, you can be seriously underwater and still continue to live in your home for many years until the value increases while the principal balance decreases.
    I never said or suggested anybody was forced to do anything just because they were underwater. Now when financial sector employees started losing their jobs by the boat load, they obviously were forced into foreclosure if their mortgages exceeded their unemployment benefits.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Declan View Post
    I never said or suggested anybody was forced to do anything just because they were underwater. Now when financial sector employees started losing their jobs by the boat load, they obviously were forced into foreclosure if their mortgages exceeded their unemployment benefits.
    Then I apologize, I misunderstood your post:

    While I agree that people should pay their bills--I wouldn't have defaulted if I were underwater during all that as a choice-
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Right.... and it's not the borrower's job to repay loans they took willingly and freely....
    Not if there's no financially sound reason (on the lender's part) that the loan ever should have been extended in the first place.

    Most people are not sophisticated enough to know how soon - or even whether - they can realistically pay back a loan, and the lenders took full advantage of that fact. Add to that a dozen pages of terms that even lawyers can't agree on, and the lack of personal responsibility on the lender's part is glaringly obvious. That's what you're continuing to deny.
    I fight against the ignorant, irresponsible, and/or closed-minded.
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I can only shake my head and wonder how in the world you could possibly assume that the flood of mortgage defaults that fueled the financial crisis as mortgage backed securities became worthless were actually just a symptom of the financial crisis instead of the cause. You are basically trying to assert that people defaulted on their mortgages because the banks were heavily invested in them. How much the banks were invested in mortgages had no bearing whatsoever on whether Joe Blow, you or anyone else was going to stop making mortgage payments.

    Stats showed that, on average, foreclosures occurred on people that hadn't made a mortgage payment in over 500 days. That's about a year and a half of living free rent at the expense of the mortgage company and ultimately everyone else in the country as the losses spread around and we all shared the pain. There's not much difference between that and outright stealing.
    Right, here's a story that says the average was 674 days in 2012. And read why. Basically, a mortgage comes with it very specific "shall" requirements to register the original mortgage and any assignments in the county courthouse or equivalent, and during the bubble, lenders routinely ignored "shall" requirements, perhaps for speed, perhaps to save on recording fees and taxes. So the mortgage might have changed hands 6 times, and none of them recorded. So when the last guy holding the bag goes to foreclose, it often can't even prove that it has the right to seize and sell the property. They expected, I suppose, that courts would say - hey, close enough - you ignored a bunch of crystal clear "shall" language in the law, but we'll take your word that you have the mortgage and can seize this house worth $300,000, sell it, and keep the proceeds!!! Brilliant move by lenders.

    In other cases, they've lost the original loan documents (the thing that says, Borrower owes lender $X) and again, expected the courts to say, OK, we'll take your word that the person sitting here in court actually DOES owe you $250,000. In still other cases, the foreclosure process requires people to swear to stuff - like they have the mortgage and the note and actually, you know, are owed some money and have the legal right to seize the property and sell it and keep the money. Basic stuff. And instead of people actually doing all these things - examining the documents and that kind of thing - they had $10 an hour clerks sign their name 500 times a day, swearing they've done these things but which had not been done. So, hilariously, Jane Doe, the loan officer who can swear to this stuff, will have 40 completely different signatures, because Jane Doe didn't sign any of them, and no one did what they swore Jane did. Sometimes in the same foreclosure package, Jane Doe will have different signatures in that package!! LMAO at the incompetence that demonstrates.

    And again, this is all the deadbeat's fault, that banks didn't take the most basic steps to protect their interest in a loan and in the collateral behind it. The amount of excuse making for idiots and crooks is pretty hilarious.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Right, here's a story that says the average was 674 days in 2012. And read why. Basically, a mortgage comes with it very specific "shall" requirements to register the original mortgage and any assignments in the county courthouse or equivalent, and during the bubble, lenders routinely ignored "shall" requirements, perhaps for speed, perhaps to save on recording fees and taxes. So the mortgage might have changed hands 6 times, and none of them recorded. So when the last guy holding the bag goes to foreclose, it often can't even prove that it has the right to seize and sell the property. They expected, I suppose, that courts would say - hey, close enough - you ignored a bunch of crystal clear "shall" language in the law, but we'll take your word that you have the mortgage and can seize this house worth $300,000, sell it, and keep the proceeds!!! Brilliant move by lenders.

    In other cases, they've lost the original loan documents (the thing that says, Borrower owes lender $X) and again, expected the courts to say, OK, we'll take your word that the person sitting here in court actually DOES owe you $250,000. In still other cases, the foreclosure process requires people to swear to stuff - like they have the mortgage and the note and actually, you know, are owed some money and have the legal right to seize the property and sell it and keep the money. Basic stuff. And instead of people actually doing all these things - examining the documents and that kind of thing - they had $10 an hour clerks sign their name 500 times a day, swearing they've done these things but which had not been done. So, hilariously, Jane Doe, the loan officer who can swear to this stuff, will have 40 completely different signatures, because Jane Doe didn't sign any of them, and no one did what they swore Jane did. Sometimes in the same foreclosure package, Jane Doe will have different signatures in that package!! LMAO at the incompetence that demonstrates.

    And again, this is all the deadbeat's fault, that banks didn't take the most basic steps to protect their interest in a loan and in the collateral behind it. The amount of excuse making for idiots and crooks is pretty hilarious.
    Everyone is responsible except the people that signed for the loans they defaulted on by your way of thinking. I think it's hilarious that you've gone to such extremes to make excuses for the idiots/crooks that stopped paying their mortgages while living rent free for 1-2 years.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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