View Poll Results: Is there a moral obligation to repay money you borrow?

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  • If you borrow money, you are morally obligated to repay it.

    110 34.48%
  • I feel no moral obligation to repay loans I've taken out

    209 65.52%
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Thread: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

  1. #861
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Declan View Post
    Your source is like 5 years old. What applied in 2009 may not be applicable in 2015 as far as the economy goes.

    “The most effective preventative vaccine for the blight caused by vacant, abandoned foreclosures has proven to be a short and efficient foreclosure process,” said Daren Blomquist, vice president at RealtyTrac. “Meanwhile, markets with lengthy and lengthening foreclosure timelines have unintentionally created a zombie foreclosure breeding ground.As we see a backlog of delayed distress finally hit the foreclosure pipeline in some of those markets, the problem is coming more to light.” Zombie Foreclosures Still A Problem in Many States | Mortgage Blog | Mortgage Information & Tips | Mortgage101 Blog
    LOL!!!!!! The cause of the financial crisis didn't change. Mortgage defaults (and the subsequent foreclosures) caused a financial implosion and a lot of them were these "strategic defaults" where unethical people with no character shrugged their shoulders and walked away from their upside down mortgages, leaving everyone else stuck with the losses.

    Mortgage defaults were, in fact, the epicenter of this financial crisis.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  2. #862
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    LOL!!!!!! The cause of the financial crisis didn't change. Mortgage defaults (and the subsequent foreclosures) caused a financial implosion and a lot of them were these "strategic defaults" where unethical people with no character shrugged their shoulders and walked away from their upside down mortgages, leaving everyone else stuck with the losses.

    Mortgage defaults were, in fact, the epicenter of this financial crisis.
    No they weren't. They were a primary symptom of it because of the credit crunch that followed the housing bubble burst because the banks themselves were so heavily invested in mortgagees that they could not exchange them for liquidity in the shadow banking system whether the mortgages were in good standing or not. This was a global crisis and it was not caused by a few "strategic defaults"

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Declan View Post
    No they weren't. They were a primary symptom of it because of the credit crunch that followed the housing bubble burst because the banks themselves were so heavily invested in mortgagees that they could not exchange them for liquidity in the shadow banking system whether the mortgages were in good standing or not. This was a global crisis and it was not caused by a few "strategic defaults"
    I can only shake my head and wonder how in the world you could possibly assume that the flood of mortgage defaults that fueled the financial crisis as mortgage backed securities became worthless were actually just a symptom of the financial crisis instead of the cause. You are basically trying to assert that people defaulted on their mortgages because the banks were heavily invested in them. How much the banks were invested in mortgages had no bearing whatsoever on whether Joe Blow, you or anyone else was going to stop making mortgage payments.

    Stats showed that, on average, foreclosures occurred on people that hadn't made a mortgage payment in over 500 days. That's about a year and a half of living free rent at the expense of the mortgage company and ultimately everyone else in the country as the losses spread around and we all shared the pain. There's not much difference between that and outright stealing.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    The huge financial crisis that spawned this recession wasn't the fault of poor people. It was the fault of deadbeats. Millions and millions of them. Some were poor and some weren't.
    Sure, and the lenders who begged deadbeats to take the loans, raked off billions in bonuses and profits, sold AAA rated dog crap all over the globe, had no role in it....

    If you stand on a street corner begging poor deadbeats to take liar, NINJA, 110% of equity, ARM, loans from you, you'll have an unlimited number of takers. When they go bad, it's YOUR fault.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Sure, and the lenders who begged deadbeats to take the loans, raked off billions in bonuses and profits, sold AAA rated dog crap all over the globe, had no role in it....
    They didn't borrow money and refuse to pay it back. You can blame them, TOO, but you can't honestly argue that they're more to blame for the implosion caused by all those defaults than the people who actually defaulted on their loans. Personal responsibility really doesn't mean anything to you at all, does it?
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I can only shake my head and wonder how in the world you could possibly assume that the flood of mortgage defaults that fueled the financial crisis as mortgage backed securities became worthless were actually just a symptom of the financial crisis instead of the cause. You are basically trying to assert that people defaulted on their mortgages because the banks were heavily invested in them. How much the banks were invested in mortgages had no bearing whatsoever on whether Joe Blow, you or anyone else was going to stop making mortgage payments.

    Stats showed that, on average, foreclosures occurred on people that hadn't made a mortgage payment in over 500 days. That's about a year and a half of living free rent at the expense of the mortgage company and ultimately everyone else in the country as the losses spread around and we all shared the pain. There's not much difference between that and outright stealing.
    The foreclosures you're whining about were an inevitable consequence of a massive, global housing and debt bubble. It was never possible for those loans to be paid back or for the housing values to remain in the stratosphere, totally unhinged from the income required to support those bubble prices. So the cause was the bubble - the only question is whether the bursting would happen quickly or less quickly.

    Besides, what you're arguing is a bunch of deadbeat borrowers are capable of bringing down the world financial system. Just to state the premise is to laugh at it. That kind of excuse wouldn't work for a used car lot.

    Credit Manager: Sorry boss, we're bankrupt. A bunch of deadbeats decided not to repay their car loans.
    Boss: Did you check their credit?
    CM: Sort of.
    Boss: What kind of down payment did they make.
    CM: None - it was a great way to sell lots of cars!! Had em lined up around the block!
    Boss: We'll just repossess the cars and sell them. How bad can the losses be?
    CM: Well, we valued them at new car prices - made more money on each loan that way!! So we'll only get half or less of the loan amount...

  7. #867
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    The foreclosures you're whining about were an inevitable consequence of a massive, global housing and debt bubble. It was never possible for those loans to be paid back or for the housing values to remain in the stratosphere, totally unhinged from the income required to support those bubble prices. So the cause was the bubble - the only question is whether the bursting would happen quickly or less quickly.

    Besides, what you're arguing is a bunch of deadbeat borrowers are capable of bringing down the world financial system. Just to state the premise is to laugh at it. That kind of excuse wouldn't work for a used car lot.

    Credit Manager: Sorry boss, we're bankrupt. A bunch of deadbeats decided not to repay their car loans.
    Boss: Did you check their credit?
    CM: Sort of.
    Boss: What kind of down payment did they make.
    CM: None - it was a great way to sell lots of cars!! Had em lined up around the block!
    Boss: We'll just repossess the cars and sell them. How bad can the losses be?
    CM: Well, we valued them at new car prices - made more money on each loan that way!! So we'll only get half or less of the loan amount...
    There wouldn't have been a financial crisis if there wasn't an avalanche of borrowers defaulting on their mortgages. But since you have no use for the concept of personal responsibility, you can't imagine how we could hold the millions of deadbeats that defaulted on their loans responsible for the economic crash that caused. That would be expecting people to be personally responsible. Can't be having that, huh? Your utter contempt for personal responsibility is noted. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    They didn't borrow money and refuse to pay it back. You can blame them, TOO, but you can't honestly argue that they're more to blame for the implosion caused by all those defaults than the people who actually defaulted on their loans. Personal responsibility really doesn't mean anything to you at all, does it?
    Of course I can because it's the lender's job to extend loans to persons who can repay it, and to secure adequate security if they don't, and to protect the shareholders from inevitable loan losses - maintain adequate reserves. The problem is lenders thought they'd found a magic way to eliminate the risk of lending massive sums to people with dodgy credit, and they ramped up leverage, 30 or 40-1, raked off billions in profits and bonuses, and found out that in fact the general wisdom of the ages was still correct - making loans to deadbeats on bubble housing values is HIGHLY risky.

  9. #869
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Of course I can because it's the lender's job to extend loans to persons who can repay it, and to secure adequate security if they don't, and to protect the shareholders from inevitable loan losses - maintain adequate reserves. The problem is lenders thought they'd found a magic way to eliminate the risk of lending massive sums to people with dodgy credit, and they ramped up leverage, 30 or 40-1, raked off billions in profits and bonuses, and found out that in fact the general wisdom of the ages was still correct - making loans to deadbeats on bubble housing values is HIGHLY risky.
    Like I said, your liberal contempt for the concept of personal responsibility is on display. It's a philosophical difference between us that makes it impossible to agree on this. You want to hold all the people who shrugged their shoulders and walked out on their obligations harmless. I know they caused a whole lot of suffering for a whole lot of people because it profited them to bail on their personal obligations, undertaken legally and willingly. Here's to me and f*** you. It's the liberal mantra, it seems.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    There wouldn't have been a financial crisis if there wasn't an avalanche of borrowers defaulting on their mortgages. But since you have no use for the concept of personal responsibility, you can't imagine how we could hold the millions of deadbeats that defaulted on their loans responsible for the economic crash that caused. That would be expecting people to be personally responsible. Can't be having that, huh? Your utter contempt for personal responsibility is noted. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
    There wouldn't have been a financial crisis without a WORLDWIDE debt and housing bubble. When that collapsed the defaults were inevitable.

    And what I'm doing is placing the "personal responsibility" burden on the lenders. It is their JOB to make good loans, get adequate security, to decent credit risks, with an adequate loss reserve. If you're a lender depending on "personal responsibility" of strangers with dodgy credit and no history of repaying loans that require maybe half their paycheck each month, on housing prices maybe double historical averages based on income, etc. you're an idiot and when your bank fails, look in the dang mirror.

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