View Poll Results: Is there a moral obligation to repay money you borrow?

Voters
319. You may not vote on this poll
  • If you borrow money, you are morally obligated to repay it.

    110 34.48%
  • I feel no moral obligation to repay loans I've taken out

    209 65.52%
Page 74 of 91 FirstFirst ... 2464727374757684 ... LastLast
Results 731 to 740 of 906

Thread: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

  1. #731
    Kinky
    tres borrachos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    New England
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:31 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    39,119

    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    You aren't paying attention. They are loaning based on ASSETS they already have. Money isn't the only asset of value. Mortgages are also assets of value. How much currency a bank has on hand doesn't in any way tell you what their assets are or how much debt they can cover. When they write you a mortgage check, you are cashing a check that is valid and good and has money to back it. They loaned you money they DO have. The fact that you don't understand how the banking system works doesn't change that fact. So your reasoning for feeling it's OK to stick the bank with YOUR bad purchasing decision because "they loaned you money they didn't have" is nonsense.
    I am reading a lot of people in this thread who have no idea what they are talking about and who appear to be pushing propaganda they don't understand.

    For anyone who is interested in what you just said here, they should spend some time researching how lending works, including learning how to read Call Reports.

    Bank lending is one of the most heavily regulated businesses in this country today. Banks can't do anything amiss.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

  2. #732
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:06 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    21,770

    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    If you rape your neighbor's wife, they come after you, too. The fact that you pay the penalty for breaking our legal contract (thou shalt not rape) doesn't make it an acceptable choice for you to make.
    That's not a contract. The rapist didn't enter into a negotiation with the neighbor with each party giving consideration to a deal that is presumably in the best interests of both parties. You're really reaching with this example - apples and killer whales.

    The fact that the bank can recover some of it's losses doesn't make it right for you to stick them with your losses. When you buy a house, the house is YOURS. It's your purchase, not the bank's purchase. If your purchase doesn't work out to be as profitable as you thought it would be, walking away and sticking the bank with that loss is just unscrupulous. Sure, it's good for you and bad for the bank, but it demonstrates that given the choice, you will do what's good for you instead of what is RIGHT. That's the morality of it. Granted, you can decide not to give a damn about doing the right thing and not care who thinks you're moral or not.... hey, after all, it's good for you and what's good for you is all that really counts, right?
    OK, most of this behavior comes out of the financial crisis. When the bank made the loan, did it have an moral obligation to place you in the cheapest loan? If it did have that obligation, it was ignored - by some estimates as many as 60% of those who ended up in subprime loans qualified for prime loans. Point is we KNOW without any doubt the bank doesn't act as a moral agent - their obligation to shareholders is to maximize returns, full stop. Why do individuals have a moral obligation when the other side rationally behaves amorally - our 'free market' system in fact takes as a given, effectively demands, that profits motivate behavior, not morality.

    I expect better from my friends, associates and business partners. Anyone that will screw someone else if it profits them is someone I don't want to have anything to do with. I have friends who filed bankruptcy. I don't hold it against them. They tried their best and the debt became so great there was no way they could pay it. The reason I still consider them friends is because they didn't blame the banks or credit card companies or car dealership and never tried so shrug their shoulders and figure it's no sweat. They knew they made mistakes and they knew that now others were going to have to pay for them and there was a sense of remorse. At least they KNEW that it was a failure on their part. At least they know and can acknowledge the difference between right and wrong.
    Part of the problem is you have an issue that some now believe the rhetoric of the "free market," and apply the logic drummed into us over decades to our personal lives that has the unfortunate side effect of potentially harming BUSINESS. Just in the last week I've read a dozen times about how an employer has no obligation to hire anyone, pay him or her a decent wage, provide benefits. There is no moral obligation for a firm to keep a plant in the U.S. when it can close the plant, lay off 5,000 workers, move it to China and improve EPS.

    So what's unclear to me is where each side's moral obligations begin and end. All I see is a demand that individuals have a moral obligation to make bad business decisions but I can't think of even ONE instance where conservatives apply a similar standard to a for profit company.

  3. #733
    Sage
    Papa bull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Midwest
    Last Seen
    06-25-15 @ 01:35 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    6,927

    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    So, in a thread about moral responsibility to repay a loan, I can't talk about other moral responsibilities in finance? Am I to start a "Are you morally obligated to carry health insurance" thread? I guess my question, Papa bull, is how can you pretend that you believe there should be morality in financial decisions, and then vote conservative? How can one worship the infallible, force of nature known as the free market, and then chastise individuals for making free market decisions?

    That's the thing, I agree with you on this topic. But what I don't get is why we agree, because by all standards of reason you shouldn't agree.
    You can bring up other responsibilities, but we're actually just talking about whether it is moral to repay a loan. If you want to argue it is immoral to not have health insurance, that's another topic and you can certainly have fun with that.

    But don't argue that republicans must be financially irresponsible because Texas is a red state and has a high rate of uninsured. Don't do that for a few reasons. 1. Florida is blue and has a higher rate of uninsured by your own map. 2. There's no clear pattern between "red states" and "uninsured". 3. Even if there was, all you know about a "red state" was that there were enough votes for the republican nominee that the electoral college went for the republican nominee. What percentage of the welfare or uninsured or abortions are from republicans cannot be determined by that. Now don't get me wrong. You can argue the "red state" vs. "blue state" thing but you'll get your ass handed to you if you try to make an argument that most of the uninsured in Texas must be republicans since most of the people who voted in 2012 pulled the lever for Romney. And you SHOULD get your ass handed to you in a debate for making such a foolish argument.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  4. #734
    Sage
    Papa bull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Midwest
    Last Seen
    06-25-15 @ 01:35 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    6,927

    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    That's not a contract. The rapist didn't enter into a negotiation with the neighbor with each party giving consideration to a deal that is presumably in the best interests of both parties. You're really reaching with this example - apples and killer whales.



    OK, most of this behavior comes out of the financial crisis. When the bank made the loan, did it have an moral obligation to place you in the cheapest loan? If it did have that obligation, it was ignored - by some estimates as many as 60% of those who ended up in subprime loans qualified for prime loans. Point is we KNOW without any doubt the bank doesn't act as a moral agent - their obligation to shareholders is to maximize returns, full stop. Why do individuals have a moral obligation when the other side rationally behaves amorally - our 'free market' system in fact takes as a given, effectively demands, that profits motivate behavior, not morality.



    Part of the problem is you have an issue that some now believe the rhetoric of the "free market," and apply the logic drummed into us over decades to our personal lives that has the unfortunate side effect of potentially harming BUSINESS. Just in the last week I've read a dozen times about how an employer has no obligation to hire anyone, pay him or her a decent wage, provide benefits. There is no moral obligation for a firm to keep a plant in the U.S. when it can close the plant, lay off 5,000 workers, move it to China and improve EPS.

    So what's unclear to me is where each side's moral obligations begin and end. All I see is a demand that individuals have a moral obligation to make bad business decisions but I can't think of even ONE instance where conservatives apply a similar standard to a for profit company.
    Jasper, some people understand that an honorable person does what they agree to do. Some people don't understand that. I guess we can chalk you up in the latter column.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  5. #735
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:06 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    21,770

    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    If you think there is any correlation between a contract on your home and a cell phone contract, you aren't being serious in this discussion.
    If that's true, then you have to explain how the two situations differ, other than in the amounts involved.

  6. #736
    Kinky
    tres borrachos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    New England
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:31 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    39,119

    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    If that's true, then you have to explain how the two situations differ, other than in the amounts involved.
    I have to explain to you why there's a difference - long term, short term, and life impacting- between defaulting on your unsecured cell phone contract and defaulting on a loan secured by your home?

    I'm not here to teach you the basics of life. If you're not responsible enough to know the difference, find someone else to help you learn it. Even my 14 year old knows it.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

  7. #737
    Sage
    whysoserious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    Last Seen
    12-29-16 @ 03:02 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    8,170

    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    You can argue the "red state" vs. "blue state" thing but you'll get your ass handed to you if you try to make an argument that most of the uninsured in Texas must be republicans since most of the people who voted in 2012 pulled the lever for Romney. And you SHOULD get your ass handed to you in a debate for making such a foolish argument.
    Well that's just horse****. I don't need to argue that, and I don't know how it would be possible to get that data on such a micro level. Your sad implication that the highest rates of uninsured or abortions would be from democrats, even though I've clearly shown that the highest rates of uninsured are in red states (and Florida is a swing state not a blue state), is lazy argument.

    The only one making foolish arguments is you, by implying such unfounded ideas. I've only pointed that red states harbor the most uninsured, as I certainly do not have the data about the political leanings of each person. And who gives a **** really? You, probably.

    Who takes the most federal government aid while paying the least in federal taxes? Red states. Who has the highest uninsured rates? Red states. But you're right, it must be the packets of blue in those states, because **** it.
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

  8. #738
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:06 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    21,770

    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Jasper, some people understand that an honorable person does what they agree to do. Some people don't understand that. I guess we can chalk you up in the latter column.
    But you're not addressing the core point which is we take as a given that businesses in the market behave amorally - they're in business to maximize profits, period. So is it "moral" to lay off 1,000 workers? The CEO doesn't consider the question - the question is whether it's profitable to do so. That's what shareholders demand. You're now demanding that individuals engage in positive acts contrary to their own financial interests, and to apply a 'morality' standard that we simply do not demand in any context in the business world.

  9. #739
    Sage
    Papa bull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Midwest
    Last Seen
    06-25-15 @ 01:35 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    6,927

    Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    Well that's just horse****. I don't need to argue that, and I don't know how it would be possible to get that data on such a micro level. Your sad implication that the highest rates of uninsured or abortions would be from democrats, even though I've clearly shown that the highest rates of uninsured are in red states (and Florida is a swing state not a blue state), is lazy argument.

    The only one making foolish arguments is you, by implying such unfounded ideas. I've only pointed that red states harbor the most uninsured, as I certainly do not have the data about the political leanings of each person. And who gives a **** really? You, probably.

    Who takes the most federal government aid while paying the least in federal taxes? Red states. Who has the highest uninsured rates? Red states. But you're right, it must be the packets of blue in those states, because **** it.
    Well, I suppose there isn't any rule that you can't use stupid and irrational arguments so go ahead and have fun with that.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  10. #740
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:06 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    21,770

    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    I have to explain to you why there's a difference - long term, short term, and life impacting- between defaulting on your unsecured cell phone contract and defaulting on a loan secured by your home?
    OK, so it's the amounts involved. At what point does it become "immoral" to break a contract? $10,000?

    Or maybe the term - so, it's OK to break a two year contract, but not a 15 year contract. What's THAT dividing line - the midpoint - 9 years?

    I'm not here to teach you the basics of life. If you're not responsible enough to know the difference, find someone else to help you learn it. Even my 14 year old knows it.
    I'm responsible enough to pay my bills, all of them, on time, including our mortgage about 10 years early. But what I'm missing is any kind of objective standard that will inform me in advance which contracts are or are NOT "immoral" to break.

Page 74 of 91 FirstFirst ... 2464727374757684 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •