View Poll Results: Is there a moral obligation to repay money you borrow?

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  • If you borrow money, you are morally obligated to repay it.

    110 34.48%
  • I feel no moral obligation to repay loans I've taken out

    209 65.52%
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Thread: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

  1. #711
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Declan View Post
    It isn't just that. I think the idea is to get people to consider things as they go forward that they normally would not consider based on a spreadsheet. It could be human resources matters, but it could also be environmental matters, or community relations matters, etc.
    Business is more than spreadsheets. A good business is an honest business and there are a lot of honest businesses out there. I have to say that the corporation I worked for, which was in the top 100 globally for annual profits, was one of the most ethical organizations I've ever had the privilege to work for. Ethics, community involvement, ecology, respect and doing the right thing BECAUSE it's the right thing were highly stressed as corporate values and were a very serious part of all reviews annually. Bad actors didn't stay around. And the CEO, was firmly convinced that without the values, a business is just a business and that isn't something for anyone to get excited about. But by working to do GOOD things, the profits take care of themselves. He always argued that doing the right thing is NEVER a problem for the bottom line and I've seen him live by that philosophy more than once, sacrificing profits because doing the right thing was more important than taking a cheap profit.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  2. #712
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    And we have "contracts" known as "laws" that outline what penalty there will be for a breach of that contract, too. The existence of a penalty for those that break our agreements isn't to be assumed to mean that breaking those agreements cannot be immoral by virtue of choosing the penalty rather than doing what's right.
    If you walk away for a contract...two things will typically happen. They will take the house and sell it and come after the difference if it's in their best interest. In your case (10,000 under) they probably wouldn't. If it's a sizable amount they would.

    Walking away from the contract is a big deal, and it's only done under extreme circumstances, but the idea that you should stick it out and pay interest for say 200k or so over the value of the property is just insane. You're better off cutting your losses and just working out a way to pay back the difference.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

  3. #713
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    If you walk away for a contract...two things will typically happen. They will take the house and sell it and come after the difference if it's in their best interest. In your case (10,000 under) they probably wouldn't. If it's a sizable amount they would.

    Walking away from the contract is a big deal, and it's only done under extreme circumstances, but the idea that you should stick it out and pay interest for say 200k or so over the value of the property is just insane. You're better off cutting your losses and just working out a way to pay back the difference.
    If you rape your neighbor's wife, they come after you, too. The fact that you pay the penalty for breaking our legal contract (thou shalt not rape) doesn't make it an acceptable choice for you to make. The fact that the bank can recover some of it's losses doesn't make it right for you to stick them with your losses. When you buy a house, the house is YOURS. It's your purchase, not the bank's purchase. If your purchase doesn't work out to be as profitable as you thought it would be, walking away and sticking the bank with that loss is just unscrupulous. Sure, it's good for you and bad for the bank, but it demonstrates that given the choice, you will do what's good for you instead of what is RIGHT. That's the morality of it. Granted, you can decide not to give a damn about doing the right thing and not care who thinks you're moral or not.... hey, after all, it's good for you and what's good for you is all that really counts, right?

    I expect better from my friends, associates and business partners. Anyone that will screw someone else if it profits them is someone I don't want to have anything to do with. I have friends who filed bankruptcy. I don't hold it against them. They tried their best and the debt became so great there was no way they could pay it. The reason I still consider them friends is because they didn't blame the banks or credit card companies or car dealership and never tried so shrug their shoulders and figure it's no sweat. They knew they made mistakes and they knew that now others were going to have to pay for them and there was a sense of remorse. At least they KNEW that it was a failure on their part. At least they know and can acknowledge the difference between right and wrong.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    If you rape your neighbor's wife, they come after you, too. The fact that you pay the penalty for breaking our legal contract (thou shalt not rape) doesn't make it an acceptable choice for you to make. The fact that the bank can recover some of it's losses doesn't make it right for you to stick them with your losses. When you buy a house, the house is YOURS. It's your purchase, not the bank's purchase. If your purchase doesn't work out to be as profitable as you thought it would be, walking away and sticking the bank with that loss is just unscrupulous. Sure, it's good for you and bad for the bank, but it demonstrates that given the choice, you will do what's good for you instead of what is RIGHT. That's the morality of it. Granted, you can decide not to give a damn about doing the right thing and not care who thinks you're moral or not.... hey, after all, it's good for you and what's good for you is all that really counts, right?

    I expect better from my friends, associates and business partners. Anyone that will screw someone else if it profits them is someone I don't want to have anything to do with. I have friends who filed bankruptcy. I don't hold it against them. They tried their best and the debt became so great there was no way they could pay it. The reason I still consider them friends is because they didn't blame the banks or credit card companies or car dealership and never tried so shrug their shoulders and figure it's no sweat. They knew they made mistakes and they knew that now others were going to have to pay for them and there was a sense of remorse. At least they KNEW that it was a failure on their part. At least they know and can acknowledge the difference between right and wrong.
    I think you and I have beat this horse....I don't think we see or will ever see eye to eye.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I think you and I have beat this horse....I don't think we see or will ever see eye to eye.
    Apparently not. We were just raised differently and I don't think there's any way we're going to agree because of that.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Apparently not. We were just raised differently and I don't think there's any way we're going to agree because of that.
    It's not because of my raising...it's from experience
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    It's not because of my raising...it's from experience
    I'm sorry to hear that.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    People who don't pay their debts and don't have a very good reason should never be allowed to borrow again.....
    Oracle of Utah
    Truth rings hollow in empty heads.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    People who don't pay their debts and don't have a very good reason should never be allowed to borrow again.....
    Agreed. Or they can borrow from payday loan organizations and pay the sort of interest rates appropriate for those that don't feel compelled to pay their debts.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    You aren't paying attention. They are loaning based on ASSETS they already have. Money isn't the only asset of value. Mortgages are also assets of value. How much currency a bank has on hand doesn't in any way tell you what their assets are or how much debt they can cover. When they write you a mortgage check, you are cashing a check that is valid and good and has money to back it. They loaned you money they DO have. The fact that you don't understand how the banking system works doesn't change that fact. So your reasoning for feeling it's OK to stick the bank with YOUR bad purchasing decision because "they loaned you money they didn't have" is nonsense.
    Of course I'm paying attention. I just disagree with that practice when it comes to lending. It has the potential to become a major slippery slope in which a run on the banks could create a bigger hole than the money supply itself. Clearly you don't understand that.

    And if I, as a business entity, can legally stick someone else with the consequences of my bad decision, I will. It happens all the time, even in the most "ethical" companies. Yet another thing you don't pay attention to.
    I fight against the ignorant, irresponsible, and/or closed-minded.
    This group is the worst enemy of America and its freedoms. It includes, but is not limited to, all Trump supporters.

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