View Poll Results: Is there a moral obligation to repay money you borrow?

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  • If you borrow money, you are morally obligated to repay it.

    110 34.48%
  • I feel no moral obligation to repay loans I've taken out

    209 65.52%
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Thread: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

  1. #661
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Only if you have not given the borrower collateral that you return in lieu of payment. A borrower should never be responsible for the loss a lender may sustain because they took insufficient collateral or the collateral has lost value. That is on them.
    That's very ****ing unethical and almost shameful.

    But hey, go ahead, the your credit tanks and no one will ever loan to you again.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I think a business has a duty to act morally.
    Incorrect. A business has a duty to make as much profit as possible for its stakeholders while acting within the law, period. If a business gains a reputation for cheating or dishonesty, it's likely to lose customers and damage its profitability, but that's the ONLY driving force.
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Yes, its frightening. There is no comparison to defaulting on your mortgage and not picking up your toddler at preschool. And it's scary that someone tried to draw the comparison.
    Okay...the fact you're frightened is interesting.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    Fundamentally, it seems to me that most liberals believe that helping the needy is the most fundamental aspect of morality. That's what "good" is to us- helping the less fortunate.

    The the right, it seems like "morality" is more like "obedience" or "loyalty" or something similar. Conservatives are instinctively rule-followers, so they've created notions of morality that are centered around obedience.

    Really, it isn't that one concept is right and the other wrong. It is just how we were raised I guess. But, I would suggest that you just play it through in your head. Is a world where people are more subservient to the powerful really a better world? Wouldn't a world where the needy suffered less be a better world? It just doesn't really compute for me how you could not see that. But, yeah, I guess mostly it is just how we were raised. Liberal parents praise their kids when they help out the kid that's getting picked on, conservative parents praise their kids when they sit quietly during church, and sooner or later, we think those things are the most important things I guess.



    This isn't the first time I've talked with a conservative. You guys don't hide it. But, hey, let me just ask you if you think I'm incorrect- do you believe that you have a moral duty to help the poor and sick?
    I think we have a civic duty to help the poor and sick. Moral duties are to eschew wrong or "bad" acts. Immorality is "doing wrong". Apathy is "doing nothing". But I've said before and personally that I believe welfare is a necessary evil because letting people starve in the streets when we have the means to provide food would be immoral as a society.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  5. #665
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    It's really not the agreement. When I signed that inch think set of documents, I simply agreed to be bound by what was included in that set of agreements - nothing more. And that agreement contemplates default, and provides the lender very specific remedies in the case of default. It's a business transaction, not a moral one, and both sides to that transaction will do (or can do without violating some moral mandates) EXACTLY what is in their financial best interests to do.

    If you miss ONE credit card payment, is it 'moral' for the credit card company to jack your APR to 100%. Not IMO, but if they can they will do it without blinking an eye, because it's part of the agreement you signed. It's just ludicrous for one side of a transaction to be bound by some moral duty when we all know the other side is motivated entirely by maximizing profits, period.

    And you would demand that a CEO of one of your investments take the 'immoral' action of strategic defaults if that CEO determined it was in your best interests as shareholder. He would and probably should be fired if he or she put some 'moral' duty ahead of his obligation to shareholders to maximize returns.

    Lots of people have said that if the loan was with a person, the rules change. That's correct IMO because most of those loans (or at least as I contemplate them) are "secured" only by our word as ethical people. In those cases, I'd go to great lengths to repay the loan because nothing but our individual morality secures the loan - that is the security I provided.

    The very short answer is for loans, like all business transactions, I expect the golden rule to apply. How do I expect the other side to treat me? My last mortgage was with a massive loan subsidiary of one of the Wall Street banks. I KNOW what their approach is to morality in business....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...LMMFAO! !!! Where's my bonus!!!
    You signed a promise to pay. You didn't sign a promise to do whatever suits you best.
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  6. #666
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    It would be immorality. I wasn't sure which you'd go with (immorality or hypocrisy) But immorality it is, then. If you act as a business, you are just as immoral as they are. You call them immoral. You say you would behave Luke they do. That means that you, too, must be immoral.
    Actually you are right, I should of been using amoral, not immoral. I've been in airports all day and distracted. Businesses are amoral, they act in an amoral environment, as you should as well.

    I think a business has a duty to act morally. Business has a duty not to lie, cheat or steal. It has a duty to be honest. These are moral obligations. Some fail to act morally. Others are quite good at eschewing immoral behaviors and practices. A business absolutely can be immoral. A brothel is an immoral business. But even businesses that are not immoral CAN engage in immoral and unethical practices.
    A business has the duty to follow the law and act in the best interest of it's shareholders...that's it.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by DifferentDrummr View Post
    Incorrect. A business has a duty to make as much profit as possible for its stakeholders while acting within the law, period. If a business gains a reputation for cheating or dishonesty, it's likely to lose customers and damage its profitability, but that's the ONLY driving force.
    We have to disagree on this. What you do in business is a reflection on you and you certainly can be immoral in your business practice. Although, in business, it tends to be called "ethics". Lying, cheating and stealing. Unethical, immoral... Just plain wrong. Wrong for business. Wrong for you. Wrong for me.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    It would be immorality. I wasn't sure which you'd go with (immorality or hypocrisy) But immorality it is, then. If you act as a business, you are just as immoral as they are. You call them immoral. You say you would behave Luke they do. That means that you, too, must be immoral.

    I think a business has a duty to act morally. Business has a duty not to lie, cheat or steal. It has a duty to be honest. These are moral obligations. Some fail to act morally. Others are quite good at eschewing immoral behaviors and practices. A business absolutely can be immoral. A brothel is an immoral business. But even businesses that are not immoral CAN engage in immoral and unethical practices.
    But defaulting on a loan isn't any of those - it's not a lie, not cheating, and you're not stealing. You signed a contract and the contract contemplates default and provides remedies to the lender. If you entered into the contract in good faith, honestly answered the questions, told the truth about your earnings, etc. then you've fulfilled your moral obligation.

    We own some rental property, and our tenants sign a lease with terms. What I know is the very second it's in their best interests to break the lease and pay the remedies in that lease in the event of default, they'll do it and I'll wish them well. It happens all the time, and I honestly have no hard feelings. They need more space, we don't have it, they don't like the location - whatever. It's business. I broke leases in my younger life - I moved cities and so paid the fees required by the lease. That's not immoral. Moving out in the middle of the night is...

  9. #669
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    You can repay someone $1 at a time.
    Not everyone will accept $1 at a time (and your late fees usually would put you so far in the hole doing that, you are better off being sent to collections anyways).

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Actually you are right, I should of been using amoral, not immoral. I've been in airports all day and distracted. Businesses are amoral, they act in an amoral environment, as you should as well.


    A business has the duty to follow the law and act in the best interest of it's shareholders...that's it.
    With business, it is called ethics.; doing the right thing. Not following through on your agreements is unethical/immoral. Call it whichever you wish but it is wrong.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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