View Poll Results: Is there a moral obligation to repay money you borrow?

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  • If you borrow money, you are morally obligated to repay it.

    110 34.48%
  • I feel no moral obligation to repay loans I've taken out

    209 65.52%
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Thread: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

  1. #651
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    once again exhibiting that you know nothing about what you are posting
    we packaged and resold no loans
    my agency provided a source of capital when much of the rest of the economy was illiquid
    but getting back to the thread topic: nothing about those loans that went into default was immoral
    Then I have to call bull rap on claims that you would be admonished if default rates weren't high enough. Loan defaults were the fuel for the economic crisis and people that think like you made it all possible. You gamble on a home purchase figuring it will always go up in value. You find out you're wrong. You screwed up and make everyone else eat your mistake. That's why we ended up with the economic crisis. Thanks to all the people that think like you. You must be proud.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    And that article got a lot of well deserved criticism because it IS immoral to do a "strategic default". Quoting someone that agrees doesn't make your case. I posted one from the NYT that explains why the article you posted is actually promoting immoral and unethical behavior.
    No, he points out the law and that mortgage is a contract that includes penatlies for breach of contract. He actually answered this question
    That is false. The agreement is to pay it back. Period. The fact that the bank stipulates what actions will be taken against you if you renege and don't pay is not to be construed as an an option that is offered. If you want to argue that the agreement states "either/or" then post the exact wording that states that you can stop paying before the mortgage has been satisfied.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    That is actually frightening that a law student is comparing defaulting on your cell phone contract or defaulting on your promise to pick up your toddler early from preschool with defaulting on your mortgage. It's also frightening that it's been posted on here.
    Really? It's "frightening"? Was it "frightening" when Morgan Stanley walked away from a 1.5 billion dollar mortgage because the building lost their value while the company was receiving massive profits? So it's frightening that individuals act in their own self interest...like a corporation would?

    Morality has nothing to do with borrowing and lending. But to make that case by pretending it's no different to default on your mortgage than to your cell phone provider or your toddler at preschool is absurd. And some idiotic people will probably believe it.
    By all means, explain the difference between a breach of contract and specified penalties between both? There's more money involved...that's it.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I don't think you understand morality. What moral duty do "we" have to the poor and sick?
    Fundamentally, it seems to me that most liberals believe that helping the needy is the most fundamental aspect of morality. That's what "good" is to us- helping the less fortunate.

    The the right, it seems like "morality" is more like "obedience" or "loyalty" or something similar. Conservatives are instinctively rule-followers, so they've created notions of morality that are centered around obedience.

    Really, it isn't that one concept is right and the other wrong. It is just how we were raised I guess. But, I would suggest that you just play it through in your head. Is a world where people are more subservient to the powerful really a better world? Wouldn't a world where the needy suffered less be a better world? It just doesn't really compute for me how you could not see that. But, yeah, I guess mostly it is just how we were raised. Liberal parents praise their kids when they help out the kid that's getting picked on, conservative parents praise their kids when they sit quietly during church, and sooner or later, we think those things are the most important things I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    And how do you know what all the conservatives believe?
    This isn't the first time I've talked with a conservative. You guys don't hide it. But, hey, let me just ask you if you think I'm incorrect- do you believe that you have a moral duty to help the poor and sick?

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    once again exhibiting that you know nothing about what you are posting
    we packaged and resold no loans
    my agency provided a source of capital when much of the rest of the economy was illiquid
    but getting back to the thread topic: nothing about those loans that went into default was immoral
    Yes and no (to your last statement). There was a lot of impropriety among the borrowers. Many lied about their income (especially the ones who got the no doc loans). Many bought houses that they should not have bought. Someone with an income of $50,000 per year should not be going into a $500,000 house, no matter how "easy" the lender made it for them to do. So there were some improprieties all around. Lying about income definitely isn't moral, and you could make the argument that people who overextended themselves, and thus became a drain on the rest of us, also acted immorally (depending on your definition of moral).
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Not true. The agreement is not that you either pay it back or the bank seizes the asset. The agreement is that you pay it back...period. The collateral is what you pledge to ensure that the lender is covered in the event that you default on your loan. A loan contract is your promise to pay.
    A loan contract is a contract...which includes that amount you should pay as well as any penalties for breach of contract. That's it...it's a black and white document. There's no morality written into it and the bank is not operating off of morality.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Really? It's "frightening"? Was it "frightening" when Morgan Stanley walked away from a 1.5 billion dollar mortgage because the building lost their value while the company was receiving massive profits? So it's frightening that individuals act in their own self interest...like a corporation would?


    By all means, explain the difference between a breach of contract and specified penalties between both? There's more money involved...that's it.
    Yes, its frightening. There is no comparison to defaulting on your mortgage and not picking up your toddler at preschool. And it's scary that someone tried to draw the comparison.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    A loan contract is a contract...which includes that amount you should pay as well as any penalties for breach of contract. That's it...it's a black and white document. There's no morality written into it and the bank is not operating off of morality.
    No, a loan contract is a promise to pay. It isn't a "either I pay or you take the collateral" agreement. I never said there was any morality in it.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Immoral is just a term stating that the entity doesn't act based on morality. Business operates and only acts in it's best interest. I'm not sure how stating a fact and then acting in the same fashion when dealing with a business is hypocrisy.
    It would be immorality. I wasn't sure which you'd go with (immorality or hypocrisy) But immorality it is, then. If you act as a business, you are just as immoral as they are. You call them immoral. You say you would behave Luke they do. That means that you, too, must be immoral.

    I think a business has a duty to act morally. Business has a duty not to lie, cheat or steal. It has a duty to be honest. These are moral obligations. Some fail to act morally. Others are quite good at eschewing immoral behaviors and practices. A business absolutely can be immoral. A brothel is an immoral business. But even businesses that are not immoral CAN engage in immoral and unethical practices.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    That is false. The agreement is to pay it back. Period. The fact that the bank stipulates what actions will be taken against you if you renege and don't pay is not to be construed as an an option that is offered. If you want to argue that the agreement states "either/or" then post the exact wording that states that you can stop paying before the mortgage has been satisfied.
    It's really not the agreement. When I signed that inch think set of documents, I simply agreed to be bound by what was included in that set of agreements - nothing more. And that agreement contemplates default, and provides the lender very specific remedies in the case of default. It's a business transaction, not a moral one, and both sides to that transaction will do (or can do without violating some moral mandates) EXACTLY what is in their financial best interests to do.

    If you miss ONE credit card payment, is it 'moral' for the credit card company to jack your APR to 100%. Not IMO, but if they can they will do it without blinking an eye, because it's part of the agreement you signed. It's just ludicrous for one side of a transaction to be bound by some moral duty when we all know the other side is motivated entirely by maximizing profits, period.

    And you would demand that a CEO of one of your investments take the 'immoral' action of strategic defaults if that CEO determined it was in your best interests as shareholder. He would and probably should be fired if he or she put some 'moral' duty ahead of his obligation to shareholders to maximize returns.

    Lots of people have said that if the loan was with a person, the rules change. That's correct IMO because most of those loans (or at least as I contemplate them) are "secured" only by our word as ethical people. In those cases, I'd go to great lengths to repay the loan because nothing but our individual morality secures the loan - that is the security I provided.

    The very short answer is for loans, like all business transactions, I expect the golden rule to apply. How do I expect the other side to treat me? My last mortgage was with a massive loan subsidiary of one of the Wall Street banks. I KNOW what their approach is to morality in business....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...LMMFAO! !!! Where's my bonus!!!

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