View Poll Results: Is there a moral obligation to repay money you borrow?

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  • If you borrow money, you are morally obligated to repay it.

    110 34.48%
  • I feel no moral obligation to repay loans I've taken out

    209 65.52%
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Thread: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    The agreement is that you either pay back the loan or the bank seizes the asset. That's the obligation you agree to. If you paid 90% of the mortgage and lost your job...the bank would seize the asset if you couldn't pay...is that moral? No...that's the agreement you worked out with the bank.
    That is false. The agreement is to pay it back. Period. The fact that the bank stipulates what actions will be taken against you if you renege and don't pay is not to be construed as an an option that is offered. If you want to argue that the agreement states "either/or" then post the exact wording that states that you can stop paying before the mortgage has been satisfied.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    And, as usual, there seems to be no dissent from liberals who disagree with the utter contempt for morality, decency and honesty that we're seeing from other liberals, so it seems safe to conclude that there isn't any meaningful disagreement in their ranks on this. And we wonder why this country is so screwed up.
    A conservative, who generally don't even believe we have a moral duty to the poor or the sick, moaning about how liberals don't place enough priority on this supposed moral duty to banks is absurdly ass backwards. Even if there is some abstract theoretical moral duty to pay loans back to banks for some reason that nobody on this thread has managed to come up with yet, certainly that that would be like a million places down the list from things like helping the poor, fighting bigotry, giving medical care to the sick and so on, right? I mean, what kind of moral system places a higher value on helping those who don't need help than it places on helping those who do need help?

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    The agreement is that you either pay back the loan or the bank seizes the asset. That's the obligation you agree to. If you paid 90% of the mortgage and lost your job...the bank would seize the asset if you couldn't pay...is that moral? No...that's the agreement you worked out with the bank.
    So which was it. By the way? Are you immoral for acting like an immoral business or are you a hypocrite for acting like business but calling what they do immoral while denying that you are?
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    That is false. The agreement is to pay it back. Period. The fact that the bank stipulates what actions will be taken against you if you renege and don't pay is not to be construed as an an option that is offered. If you want to argue that the agreement states "either/or" then post the exact wording that states that you can stop paying before the mortgage has been satisfied.
    Here is a link on this subject
    The Morality of Strategic Default « UCLA Law Review

    Here is the quote

    First, a mortgage contract, like all other contracts, is purely a legal docu*ment, not a sacred promise.[14]

    Think of it this way: When you got your cell phone, you likely signed a contract with your carrier in which you promised to pay a set monthly payment for two years. Let’s say, though, that two months after you sign your contract, the price of cell phone service drops by half—meaning that the same cell phone service for which you pay $100 a month could be had for $50 with another carrier. You decide that you would be financially better off paying the early termination fee of $300 rather than $100 a month for twenty-two more months of the same service that you can now get for $50.

    Would it be immoral for you to break your contractual promise to pay $100 for two years and elect instead to pay the early termination fee? Of course not. The option to breach your promise to pay is part of the contract, as is the con*sequence of breach—a $300 early termination fee. There is absolutely noth*ing immoral about exercising your option to breach, and you’d be financially wise to do so.

    Though a mortgage contract is more substantial than a cell phone cont*ract, it’s no different in principle. Like a cell phone contract, a mortgage contract explicitly sets out the consequences of breach.

    In other words, the lender has contemplated in advance that the mort*gagor might be unable or unwilling to continue making payments on his mortgage at some point—and has decided in advance what fair compensation would be. The lender then wrote that compensation into the contract. Spe*cifically, the lender probably included clauses in the contract providing that the lender may foreclose on the property, keep any payments previously made on the property, and may opt to pursue a deficiency judgment against the mortgagor if state law so allows.[15]

    By writing this penalty into the contract and then signing the contract, the lender has agreed to accept the property and (in most states) the option to pursue a deficiency judgment in lieu of payment. Of course, even in states where they can, lenders frequently don’t pursue borrowers for deficiency judgments because it’s often not economically worthwhile to do so.[16] Nevertheless, that’s the agreement. No one forced the lender to sign—or write—the con*tract,[17] and the lender wouldn’t hesitate to exercise the right to take a defaulter’s house if it were financially advantageous to do so. Concerns of morality or social responsi*bil*ity wouldn’t be part of the equation.[18]

    In short, as far as the law is concerned, choosing to exercise the default option in a mortgage contract is no more immoral than choosing to cancel a cell phone contract. The borrower must simply be willing to accept the conse*quences, which, in the case of a mortgage contract, typically include foreclosure and the risk of a deficiency judgment in most states.

    Even though the law doesn’t treat breach of a mortgage contract as a moral wrong, it might be argued that one should still keep one’s promises.[19] That’s a fine belief as far as it goes.

    But why treat the promise to pay one’s mortgage as any more sacred than any other promise? We break promises all the time when the consequences of fulfilling them become too great—without being considered immoral for doing so.[20] I recently promised my daughter, for example, that I’d pick her up early from preschool. Though I take promises to my children seriously, I had to break this one because an important meeting ran long at work. I had competing obligations and had to make a choice. Though some might quibble with my choice, it wasn’t immoral.
    There's no reason for me to continually repeat what I've said earlier
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    A conservative, who generally don't even believe we have a moral duty to the poor or the sick, moaning about how liberals don't place enough priority on this supposed moral duty to banks is absurdly ass backwards. Even if there is some abstract theoretical moral duty to pay loans back to banks for some reason that nobody on this thread has managed to come up with yet, certainly that that would be like a million places down the list from things like helping the poor, fighting bigotry, giving medical care to the sick and so on, right? I mean, what kind of moral system places a higher value on helping those who don't need help than it places on helping those who do need help?
    I don't think you understand morality. What moral duty do "we" have to the poor and sick? And who is "we"? And how do you know what all the conservatives believe?

    By the way, I'm also calling you on Logical fallacy Ad hominem tu quoque.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    The agreement is that you either pay back the loan or the bank seizes the asset. That's the obligation you agree to. If you paid 90% of the mortgage and lost your job...the bank would seize the asset if you couldn't pay...is that moral? No...that's the agreement you worked out with the bank.
    Not true. The agreement is not that you either pay it back or the bank seizes the asset. The agreement is that you pay it back...period. The collateral is what you pledge to ensure that the lender is covered in the event that you default on your loan. A loan contract is your promise to pay.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    And that policy led to the biggest financial crisis since the great depression. Congratulations on the wonderfulness of your federal agencies and the fact that they were profitable while the crap loans they packaged and then resold tanked the rest of the economy. You must be so proud.
    once again exhibiting that you know nothing about what you are posting
    we packaged and resold no loans
    my agency provided a source of capital when much of the rest of the economy was illiquid
    but getting back to the thread topic: nothing about those loans that went into default was immoral
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Here is a link on this subject
    The Morality of Strategic Default « UCLA Law Review

    Here is the quote
    And that article got a lot of well deserved criticism because it IS immoral to do a "strategic default". Quoting someone that agrees doesn't make your case. I posted one from the NYT that explains why the article you posted is actually promoting immoral and unethical behavior.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    So which was it. By the way? Are you immoral for acting like an immoral business or are you a hypocrite for acting like business but calling what they do immoral while denying that you are?
    Immoral is just a term stating that the entity doesn't act based on morality. Business operates and only acts in it's best interest. I'm not sure how stating a fact and then acting in the same fashion when dealing with a business is hypocrisy.

    There's no doubt I wear different hats based on different situations. Politically I'm pro choice, personally, if I ever got a woman pregnant I wouldn't want her to have an abortion.
    At work, I work in the best interest for the company I work for. Outside of the company? I have viewpoints that would not be in the best interest of the company.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Here is a link on this subject
    The Morality of Strategic Default « UCLA Law Review

    Here is the quote



    There's no reason for me to continually repeat what I've said earlier
    That is actually frightening that a law student is comparing defaulting on your cell phone contract or defaulting on your promise to pick up your toddler early from preschool with defaulting on your mortgage. It's also frightening that it's been posted on here.

    Morality has nothing to do with borrowing and lending. But to make that case by pretending it's no different to default on your mortgage than to your cell phone provider or your toddler at preschool is absurd. And some idiotic people will probably believe it.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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