View Poll Results: Is there a moral obligation to repay money you borrow?

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  • If you borrow money, you are morally obligated to repay it.

    110 34.48%
  • I feel no moral obligation to repay loans I've taken out

    209 65.52%
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Thread: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

  1. #611
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by DifferentDrummr View Post
    Two amoral entities can still work together to accomplish something that benefits both of them. In fact, it happens every day. The modern economy couldn't exist without such relationships.
    And as I said before, the fact that an entity is amoral does not mean that the behavior of that entity is beyond moral judgement. We both know that you would consider it very immoral for the "amoral" business that employs you to tell you it's decided not to pay for the work that it agreed to pay you for. If you enter into a bargain and you don't hold up your end, you are behaving immorally and it's just nonsense to rationalize that if you do it in the course of business, that business is amoral and, therefore, screwing someone by not holding up your end of the deal you both agreed to isn't immoral for you.

    If you want to claim that businesses cannot act in an immoral way, just say it so I can cut that quote out and make myself a signature line that looks like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by DifferentDrummer
    Businesses never engage in immoral behavior.
    Go ahead and confirm that quote for me. Thanks.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Or more dishonest. "Well screw the bank, I'm not paying my loan because I think I can get a better deal now". I suppose more people would be willing to sell their integrity for 200K than they would for a piddling 25 or 30K, huh? What's your integrity worth? How much would you sell out for?
    Seeing as to how neither one of us has faced a situation where we owed significantly more than we owed that question would be tough to answer. It's rich how you are acting morally superior though. Talk is cheap.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    It's been my experience that most banks operate on what people say they are going to do as evidenced by the signed documents that are involved.

    There is also little doubt they must also assume there is a percentage of their business which will be conducted with people of little character. I am also certain they must account for a best guess percentage of their loans that will indeed end up in default despite everyone's best efforts.
    The less character, the higher the interest rate usually is... until the government steps in on behalf of deadbeats to demand that deadbeat, shiftless bastards with no character get low-interest loans with no downpayment, too.

    Payday loans have ridiculously high interest rates because they know they are dealing with a ridiculously high percentage of customers that are immoral and of low character and will refuse to pay their debts unless someone threatens to break their legs or shoot out their kneecaps (and not even then if they can flee, instead).
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    It's been my experience that most banks operate on what people say they are going to do as evidenced by the signed documents that are involved.

    There is also little doubt they must also assume there is a percentage of their business which will be conducted with people of little character. I am also certain they must account for a best guess percentage of their loans that will indeed end up in default despite everyone's best efforts.
    Hahaha! People of little character. Gotta love conservatives that tend to take credit for abstract moral questions. 97% of conservatives said that infidelity is very immoral. I'm sure that only 3% of conservatives cheat on their spouse....Conservatives also tend to not have pre-marital sex and never get abortions.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Seeing as to how neither one of us has faced a situation where we owed significantly more than we owed that question would be tough to answer. It's rich how you are acting morally superior though. Talk is cheap.
    I dipped into my pocket and paid off mine instead of walking away. It's one thing if you CAN'T make the payments on a deal you agreed to. It's another completely if you chose not to because you would rather stick the bank with your bad investment than make good on your own agreement. If you don't see anything wrong with welshing on a loan just because you make out better by doing that, then it's not my moral superiority that is in play, but your moral inferority because that belief system is just plain immoral. Here's to me and f*** you. I better NEVER catch you arguing that businesses are immoral and are just out to screw people because that would make you nothing less than a complete hypocrite given that you think screwing people in business is all fine and good as long as you're the one doing the screwing.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Working for the government, you didn't see defaulting on debt as immoral and if you had a low default rate, it just meant that government policies weren't making sure banks were giving enough loans to people who couldn't pay them off. And we wonder what the hell is wrong with our government, don't we?
    again exposing your ignorance of finance and business
    my federal agency was found to be a net revenue generator, where the return to tax coffers substantially exceeded the cost of our agency's operations
    the amount of those loans that were not repaid were far exceeded by the tax receipts from the businesses and businesses' wage earners, which receipts would not have been possible but for the availability of the federal loans
    being involved in that government effort to aid commercial activities allowed me to evolve from my ideology as a capital "L" Libertarian
    and it was only a moral issue when we found instances of waste, fraud and/or abuse
    the reality is that some businesses/borrowers are not going to make it
    the key is to enable so many others to succeed that it more than offsets the losses of those failed attempts
    you know, smart public policy
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Hahaha! People of little character. Gotta love conservatives that tend to take credit for abstract moral questions. 97% of conservatives said that infidelity is very immoral. I'm sure that only 3% of conservatives cheat on their spouse....Conservatives also tend to not have pre-marital sex and never get abortions.
    Conservatives may not live up to their values and when they don't, you can scream "hypocrite". But I think it's better to be in the group where some don't live up to the values they promote than to be in the group that has no values.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    again exposing your ignorance of finance and business
    my federal agency was found to be a net revenue generator, where the return to tax coffers substantially exceeded the cost of our agency's operations
    the amount of those loans that were not repaid were far exceeded by the tax receipts from the businesses and businesses' wage earners, which receipts would not have been possible but for the availability of the federal loans
    being involved in that government effort to aid commercial activities allowed me to evolve from my ideology as a capital "L" Libertarian
    and it was only a moral issue when we found instances of waste, fraud and/or abuse
    the reality is that some businesses/borrowers are not going to make it
    the key is to enable so many others to succeed that it more than offsets the losses of those failed attempts
    you know, smart public policy
    And that policy led to the biggest financial crisis since the great depression. Congratulations on the wonderfulness of your federal agencies and the fact that they were profitable while the crap loans they packaged and then resold tanked the rest of the economy. You must be so proud.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    among other things, liquidation/recovery of government and government guaranteed loans
    As I recall, you were in the business of handing out government loans to companies who bought the right congresscritters were deserving examples of American enterprise.

    So I find your blasé approach to whether or not lenders get paid back.... Interesting.

    notably, defaulting debtors were not seen as immoral borrowers
    one indication we were too rigid in our underwriting processes was a very low default rate, indicating too conservative approval criteria


    So..... success indicates failure. Yeah. This logic sounds like government.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    The less character, the higher the interest rate usually is... until the government steps in on behalf of deadbeats to demand that deadbeat, shiftless bastards with no character get low-interest loans with no downpayment, too.

    Payday loans have ridiculously high interest rates because they know they are dealing with a ridiculously high percentage of customers that are immoral and of low character and will refuse to pay their debts unless someone threatens to break their legs or shoot out their kneecaps (and not even then if they can flee, instead).
    Good points.

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