View Poll Results: Is there a moral obligation to repay money you borrow?

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  • If you borrow money, you are morally obligated to repay it.

    110 34.48%
  • I feel no moral obligation to repay loans I've taken out

    209 65.52%
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Thread: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

  1. #501
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon, post #40 this string
    One is obliged to fulfill any just contracts one has entered into in accordance with the civil law, unless excused by the other party.

    It is NOT Morally Wrong to Take Advantage of stipulations in the contract, or in the civil law in force at the time of the contract.
    Since when?
    I mean that IS REALLY ODD considering Your Own previous String/OP and posts saying Interest IS "morally wrong", In direct denial of the OP premise here.
    Now it's OK?
    I mean, Interest is Always "in the Loan Contract."

    Paleocon OP, 9/23/14
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/econom...ainst-law.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon OP

    In the practice of usury, one rents money out to others (interest). This is Wrong because, while things like houses and apartments can be rented out, because they can be used without being consumed, Money is more like food, it must be consumed in order to be used, thus it Cannot Licitly be Lent at Interest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon post #7
    Quote Originally Posted by AlabamaPaul
    "thus it cannot licitly be lent at interest"

    Is that not an argument for free money?
    No. It's one thing to demand repayment of the loan. It's another to charge over that amount.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon #13
    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos
    Are you saying the practice of lending should be banned, or are you talking about usury, which isn't the same as lending with interest.

    There are usury laws that are managed on the state levels. Every state has its own usury limits.
    The practice of person-recourse Lending At Interest should be Banned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon, post #18
    I'm saying that person-recourse interest should be illegal.
    ....
    etc, etc, etc.

    Paleocon vs Paleocon
    Last edited by mbig; 01-24-15 at 08:30 PM.
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  2. #502
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I suspect you would consider contract law to be a lot more of a moral issue if the corporation that employed you decided to renege on your contract and refuse to pay you for work you've done. Hey. They're a corporation and it's a contract so it's not immoral to refuse to pay you what they owe you.

    I think you'd consider that plenty immoral even if you don't admit it.
    No, that wouldn't be a moral thing either. My employer doesn't pay me because it is moral, it pays me because the consequences for it would be much worse if it didn't pay me. I could sue it and get significantly more than it owed me if it did that.

    I dunno man. The bottom line is just that the way you're looking at it isn't how the world works. Companies most definitely do not look at contracts like they impose any kind of moral duty on them. Companies aren't even capable of having morals. If you're going into dealings with companies imposing extra obligations on yourself like that, you're playing a bit of a sucker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    If you think it is irrational to do what you promised if it profits you more not to, then you should look up the "sociopathy" and see if any of the characteristics of it sound familiar.
    No, no... Re-read my post and think it through. I described a situation where both party ends up better off. Contract law makes it more or less impossible for the breacher to end up better off while the other party is worse off.

  3. #503
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Are people who pay back loans suckers?
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  4. #504
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Wow. I see why this country is in the sad state of affairs it's in and going downhill quickly. I think I'm going to have to give up reading political discussion forums because hearing what makes people tick these days is making me lose all faith in humanity.
    what i see are the observations of someone who is not very financially astute
    you took a $30,000 bath you did not need to take, when you failed to short your house in a pledge of the deed in lieu of foreclosure. someone knowledgeable about finance would have taken that route and kept the $30K (plus the requisite tax and penalties) in the 401K. that high horse was costly to feed
    i am sure that your corporate lender 'feels' wonderful that you substituted an odd sense of morality for business acumen
    you have only proven that PT Barnum was right
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  5. #505
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    No, that wouldn't be a moral thing either. My employer doesn't pay me because it is moral, it pays me because the consequences for it would be much worse if it didn't pay me. I could sue it and get significantly more than it owed me if it did that.

    I dunno man. The bottom line is just that the way you're looking at it isn't how the world works. Companies most definitely do not look at contracts like they impose any kind of moral duty on them. Companies aren't even capable of having morals. If you're going into dealings with companies imposing extra obligations on yourself like that, you're playing a bit of a sucker.



    No, no... Re-read my post and think it through. I described a situation where both party ends up better off. Contract law makes it more or less impossible for the breacher to end up better off while the other party is worse off.
    And that breech is immoral and unethical. And contract law doesn't make it possible for you to breech a contract. Lack of ethics makes that possible. Contract law may tell you what's going to happen to you if you breech the contract but a breech is a breech if your contractual agreement, not part of it.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  6. #506
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Are people who pay back loans suckers?
    Seems to be the question, huh? I think we've been given the answer, too.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  7. #507
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Wow. I see why this country is in the sad state of affairs it's in and going downhill quickly. I think I'm going to have to give up reading political discussion forums because hearing what makes people tick these days is making me lose all faith in humanity.
    You have no idea. You need to research into the flow of money, and the relationship between The Fed, The Government, and the banks. There is absolutely no reason why the world should be in its state that it is in today, except for power. We have the resources and wealth to provide the necessities of life of everyone, yet it isn't done. The powerful want people in debt, to force them to work.

    So when republicans are mad at spending, what is it, 60 billion dollars to make community colleges free, it's a gimick. Because not only would that create more tax dollars and pay the 60 billion back, not only could we close loopholes in the tax code to pay for it, but we could print it. And it is sustainable, once you learn how it works. That is what is so disgusting. I mean 60 billion dollars (I could have this number wrong) is chump change in the national perspective. Consider that our defense budget is half a trillion dollars.

    So why don't they want that?

    For one that is less loans, and that is less money for the banks.
    Two conservatives hate the idea of using their money to benefit someone else. It has to benefit them directly.
    But three the people in true power, want people to be in as much debt as they can be. It forces people to work, and to work hard. That way they don't read, and do other things to really find out what is going on. And so we are like sheep, working 9-5 providing our labor for the majority of our lives, and people get increasingly more rich because money is printed. It stays where it stays, because people are content with their lives. As long as they have their Xbox One, Netflix, cell phone, or any source of product/services/entertainment, we don't complain. And the cycle continues.

    There are solutions out there. I've been trying to get people to see some, but they usually regard it as, "socialist," "communist," or "utopian." It's a defense mechanism to keep things the way they are.

    The information is out there, you just have to look thru it and step thru the doorway.
    "Don't care. I don't care about polar bears, and I don't care about people who think our policies should be dictated by the effects on polar bears. Polar bears are basically Ice Monsters. Like that thing in the second Star Wars movie. **** em. And anything with more than four legs." -Deuce

  8. #508
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Are people who pay back loans suckers?
    No, definitely not. People absolutely should pay back loans because it is at least nearly always in their self interest.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    And that breech is immoral and unethical. And contract law doesn't make it possible for you to breech a contract. Lack of ethics makes that possible. Contract law may tell you what's going to happen to you if you breech the contract but a breech is a breech if your contractual agreement, not part of it.
    Yes, contract law makes breaching possible. In fact, contract law in lots of situations is kind of structured to encourage "efficient breach"- situations like the example I gave with the widget. For example, if a contract has overly harsh penalties for breaching- penalties that exceed the actual damage you'd suffer from the breach, then courts will refuse to enforce those penalties because they discourage parties from breaching when it would actually be more efficient for them to breach. The reason they do that is because efficient breach is a good thing and you don't want the law to discourage a good thing from happening.

    In the world of big corporate contracts that span years, I would say that maybe like 40% of them are ultimately breached. A deal that is good for both parties at the start may no longer good for one of them a few years out. Say, for example, a company has a contract to provide IT services over the course of 6 years and in year 4 they start refocusing their business on hardware and it becomes a hassle to keep providing IT services. in that situation, the vendor will usually terminate or breach their contracts to provide IT services. Nobody in the business world sees that as some kind of unethical thing or something. Assuming the contracts were written well, they have provisions built in to protect the customer. For example, maybe the breaching vendor has to pay $x or to give y months of free transition service or something. Life isn't always predictable and contracts are written with that in mind. The customer would not be any less likely to buy something else from that breaching vendor later, they wouldn't go around badmouthing the vendor, they wouldn't feel like they'd been lied to or something. It's business, not personal.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    Yes, contract law makes breaching possible. In fact, contract law in lots of situations is kind of structured to encourage "efficient breach"- situations like the example I gave with the widget. For example, if a contract has overly harsh penalties for breaching- penalties that exceed the actual damage you'd suffer from the breach, then courts will refuse to enforce those penalties because they discourage parties from breaching when it would actually be more efficient for them to breach. The reason they do that is because efficient breach is a good thing and you don't want the law to discourage a good thing from happening.

    In the world of big corporate contracts that span years, I would say that maybe like 40% of them are ultimately breached. A deal that is good for both parties at the start may no longer good for one of them a few years out. Say, for example, a company has a contract to provide IT services over the course of 6 years and in year 4 they start refocusing their business on hardware and it becomes a hassle to keep providing IT services. in that situation, the vendor will usually terminate or breach their contracts to provide IT services. Nobody in the business world sees that as some kind of unethical thing or something. Assuming the contracts were written well, they have provisions built in to protect the customer. For example, maybe the breaching vendor has to pay $x or to give y months of free transition service or something. Life isn't always predictable and contracts are written with that in mind. The customer would not be any less likely to buy something else from that breaching vendor later, they wouldn't go around badmouthing the vendor, they wouldn't feel like they'd been lied to or something. It's business, not personal.
    A mortgage only gives you one option: REPAY. The fact that the bank has options if you default is THEIR option. Yours is: REPAY, not repay or give them the house. Your only option in a mortgage contract is repayment.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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