View Poll Results: Is there a moral obligation to repay money you borrow?

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  • If you borrow money, you are morally obligated to repay it.

    110 34.48%
  • I feel no moral obligation to repay loans I've taken out

    209 65.52%
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Thread: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

  1. #321
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    Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    And I maintain that morality does not require the paying back of loans made by banks or other financial institutions.

    When I take a loan, I create an obligation to adhere to the terms of the contract - which I do. However, the terms do not require that I pay back the loan. At least, none of the loans I've ever taken require that. They have all contained provisions that allow me to not pay back the loan and there's nothing immoral about taking a course of action that the contract has defined
    Bullcrap. The fact that your credit sucks so bad that you can only get secured loans isn't to be construed as prof that repayment is "optional". The terms of the contract DO call for you to repay. The fact that collection mechanisms are part of the contract aren't proof that you don't have an obligation. It's there just so there so that it is clear what actions will be taken if you renege on your obligation.

    The fact that a bank will foreclose if you don't pay isn't a justification that it is OK not to repay any more than the fact that the government will send you to jail if you steal makes it OK to steal and just do the time for it.

    It is your obligation to fulfill the terms of your contract and the clauses telling you what actions they will take if you don't isn't to be construed as proof that being a deadbeat isn't wrong. It's just proof that lenders know a lot of people like you simply can't be trusted to do what you agreed. They're not to "allow you not to repay". They're there to tell you what they are going to do if you fail to meet your obligation. That's what the loan security is about. It's not a "repayment optional" clause.

    And your credit will suffer because you have proven that you don't have enough character to be trusted. That wouldn't happen if repayment of loans was optional. It is a black mark against you. And it's well deserved.
    Last edited by Papa bull; 01-24-15 at 10:03 AM.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  2. #322
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    Me not feeling a moral obligation for a business transaction does not mean I will not honor the terms of a legally enforced contract, so the accusation that I wouldn't repay it and that I don't care doesn't work here. There are obvious penalties to not honoring a debt contract (if the contract was well written) and if I want to keep the hour or car or whatever, I will continue to pay. If I want to keep my credit score good I will continue to pay. Stuff like that. Those things benefit me so I will behave accordingly and that lowers rates for everyone.

    So why the outrage?

    I am sorry that feeling no loyalty to entities that do thing like lay people off and ruin lives so some CEO can get a fifth home bothers so many people but maybe if these companies behaved ethically I wouldn't have checked out. I am simply doing what makes sense and focusing my morality on things in life that aren't inherently evil. But if you want to feel morally obligated to such a monster, go ahead. The way businesses behave gives me no reason to care. If a business puts people ahead of money I will support them as I have means to, like I do with charities. Until then I do my job well enough to get my raises and fake that I care well enough so I can continue to eat and have shelter because this is the world people want. A world that focuses more on money than people. I do not feel obligated to such greed. I reserve my energy for people.
    It's not a matter of feeling loyalty to entities - that's utter nonsense. It's a matter of being a decent, honest, trustworthy person who honours his word. Nobody forces you to buy something on credit so if you feel banks and other lenders are dishonest, greedy and unethical then don't do business with them. Don't use credit period. Your sanctimonious excuse that the lenders are crooks is just a convenient way for you to justify being a dishonest drain on society. If you believed a word you said and had the slightest bit of honour and moral decency, then you wouldn't engage in transactions with people and businesses you disrespect.

    And since you claim to be hard working and deserving of raises and pay, I guess you'd be fine with your employer not paying you for the work you provide any given week or month. Maybe your employer says, gee, it's in my best interest not to pay you today so too bad, so sad, tacomancer gets diddly for his labour this week.

    Your self-centered, selfish, attitude towards honesty, integrity and morality is disgraceful and a prime example of why much of society is going to hell.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  3. #323
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    [emphasis added by bubba to make the point immediately below]

    what you have described is a prima facie instance of fraud
    hopefully, there is no one on these boards who believes fraud is a moral act
    You'd be wrong in your wishful thinking. Several, including the one poster who liked your post, have stated repeatedly words to the effect that they would opt to default at the drop of a hat if it benefited them personally. As a result, they believe that defrauding a business lender is perfectly acceptable and laughably "expected" by lenders.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  4. #324
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    The govt pays back all of the money it borrows. It does not default on its' debt (though the immoral republicans are doing everything they can to change that)

    Then it turns around and borrows again.


    The hackery is high with this one.
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    It's not a matter of feeling loyalty to entities - that's utter nonsense. It's a matter of being a decent, honest, trustworthy person who honours his word. Nobody forces you to buy something on credit so if you feel banks and other lenders are dishonest, greedy and unethical then don't do business with them. Don't use credit period. Your sanctimonious excuse that the lenders are crooks is just a convenient way for you to justify being a dishonest drain on society. If you believed a word you said and had the slightest bit of honour and moral decency, then you wouldn't engage in transactions with people and businesses you disrespect.

    And since you claim to be hard working and deserving of raises and pay, I guess you'd be fine with your employer not paying you for the work you provide any given week or month. Maybe your employer says, gee, it's in my best interest not to pay you today so too bad, so sad, tacomancer gets diddly for his labour this week.

    Your self-centered, selfish, attitude towards honesty, integrity and morality is disgraceful and a prime example of why much of society is going to hell.
    I find it very disheartening that so many refuse to understand that the moral obligation to do what you promise to do is about YOUR behavior and character, not about someone or something else's character or morality. The morality of the person you are doing business with isn't the issue. The issue is whether you are good for your word or whether you are not. It's whether you fulfill obligations you accept or whether you do not. It is about your character if you walk away from a mortgage and make the bank foreclose; it's not about your rationalizations about the lender that you decide to stiff. It's all about YOU.

    The fact that so many refuse to accept that is very disturbing and very revealing.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  6. #326
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    If you borrow money, do you feel there is a moral obligation to repay the money you borrowed?
    Yes. If you borrow it, you pay it back. If someone feels sorry for you and loans you enough cash to attend a show, you pay it back, or try to, because I have friends, who won't allow it, because they insist it was a gift, but at least I try to pay it back. There is another old saying as well, if you make a mess or break it, you clean it up or fix it. I used to get really miffed at coworkers, who jammed up the shredder and then walked away. Okay, maybe they didn't have the expertise to fix it, but at least tell someone. Their philosophy was to walk away, knowing full well, that someone else would fix it. Besides, they didn't have time, since their projects were so much more important than life itself.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by sookster View Post
    Nope. Banks use customer's money to enact debt on the consumer. It isn't their money.
    Nonsense. Banks pay you to use their money and they expect you to pay them to use theirs. When you deposit your money in a bank - be it a savings account, chequing account, GIC, retirement account, etc. - you loan your money to the bank to use in their business for the fee they offer. If you don't like the fee, you take your business elsewhere. Likewise, the bank then uses those deposits to generate income by loaning the funds to those who wish to borrow. Just as it's your money when you borrow from a bank, it is the bank's money when you loan it to them, regardless of whether you take it out the next day or leave it in there for years.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  8. #328
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    I wonder how many that think repaying loans is "optional" think that giving you back the money you deposit is also optional? You can take legal action against them so they have no obligation to return your funds if they decide they would rather not. Right?
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  9. #329
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    It's not a matter of feeling loyalty to entities - that's utter nonsense. It's a matter of being a decent, honest, trustworthy person who honours his word. Nobody forces you to buy something on credit so if you feel banks and other lenders are dishonest, greedy and unethical then don't do business with them. Don't use credit period. Your sanctimonious excuse that the lenders are crooks is just a convenient way for you to justify being a dishonest drain on society. If you believed a word you said and had the slightest bit of honour and moral decency, then you wouldn't engage in transactions with people and businesses you disrespect.

    And since you claim to be hard working and deserving of raises and pay, I guess you'd be fine with your employer not paying you for the work you provide any given week or month. Maybe your employer says, gee, it's in my best interest not to pay you today so too bad, so sad, tacomancer gets diddly for his labour this week.

    Your self-centered, selfish, attitude towards honesty, integrity and morality is disgraceful and a prime example of why much of society is going to hell.
    It is absolutely a matter of loyalties and quid pro quo. To give something like moral obligation to an institution which will never repay the favor is simply being a martyr and setting yourself up for vulnerability.

    It is the same for work. I go above my job description precisely because I get extra rewards for it. If the employer decides to arbitrarily stop paying me, then there are state agencies for that. Its just a deal, no more or less.

    This is not a moral argument but a legal one. You can feel disgusted if you want to but it accomplishes nothing. I am sure it makes you feel like a good person though so I hope you get plenty of pleasure out of it.

    As far as the transactions, I have no choice if I want to participate in modern society, that is simply how it's structured and this is not worth starving over. I am worth more than some useless battle that I have no chance of winning. In life, smart people choose their battles.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 01-24-15 at 10:41 AM.

  10. #330
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    It's not a "moral obligation to an istitution". It is a moral obligation to do what you agree to do, to mean what you say and to live up to your agreements. It isn't about the lender, their morals or lack thereof. It is about YOUR morality. Or lack thereof.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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