View Poll Results: Is there a moral obligation to repay money you borrow?

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  • If you borrow money, you are morally obligated to repay it.

    110 34.48%
  • I feel no moral obligation to repay loans I've taken out

    209 65.52%
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Thread: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

  1. #301
    Sage

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Actually, I'm not. Surprised, that is. People on the left are less likely to have respect for business. I'm not sure if it's conscious or subconscious, but I suspect it's something of a "they'll screw me if I don't screw them first" mindset.
    Actually it is a matter of intelligence I'm afraid. Anyone too stupid to see that they were duped into buying a bad loan by a bank and feel sorry for them and pay the whole thing off for "moral reasons" deserves to be a right winger. I guess lefties don't like being patsies as much as the Right.
    Last edited by iguanaman; 01-24-15 at 01:30 AM.

  2. #302
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    I'm sure.

    You're definitely more likely to find distrust of business on the left, but the idea that "the left" finds business itself or businessmen as a whole to be immoral is patently untrue.
    I've been posting on boards like this since '98, and throughout all that time liberals online have been very clear on their belief that businessmen are immoral and only care about profits. The whole they just want to pay you as little as possible and don't care if you strave to death, and hell, if child labor wasn't illegal they would hire them too because they like cheap labor.

    As a businessman I can't help but take it somewhat personally. I pay my workers well with great benefits and I don't much care for how liberals treat me.

  3. #303
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I've been posting on boards like this since '98, and throughout all that time liberals online have been very clear on their belief that businessmen are immoral and only care about profits. The whole they just want to pay you as little as possible and don't care if you strave to death, and hell, if child labor wasn't illegal they would hire them too because they like cheap labor.
    But you believe that business is never immoral and always cares about more than profits. Either you are incredibly nave or a fool.

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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    But you believe that business is never immoral and always cares about more than profits. Either you are incredibly nave or a fool.
    There is bastards in all walks of life.

  5. #305
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I've been posting on boards like this since '98, and throughout all that time liberals online have been very clear on their belief that businessmen are immoral and only care about profits. The whole they just want to pay you as little as possible and don't care if you strave to death, and hell, if child labor wasn't illegal they would hire them too because they like cheap labor.

    As a businessman I can't help but take it somewhat personally. I pay my workers well with great benefits and I don't much care for how liberals treat me.
    Yes, you poor, persecuted soul, with all those mean liberals out to get you.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

  6. #306
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Yes they are options for abiding by the terms of the contract. The contract spells out such options.
    They are not options for abiding by the contract. That's stupidity of the highest order. They are options to protect the lender from immoral people whose word is worthless and who choose to walk away from their obligations. Unfortunately, as your posts and this thread proves, lenders are well away that in today's society the immorality you espouse is rampant and so they legally protect their interests.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  7. #307
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Agreed, words mean something.

    People mean something too though.

    A lot of people find themselves in circumstances they didn't expect. When they were 30yo professionals bringing in a household income of 120k a year, that 25 year mortgage probably sounded like something they could easily manage.

    When twenty years later the business Mr was in doesn't exist anymore thanks to outsourcing or technology, and Mrs was stricken by a strange disorder that has left her unable to work, things look a lot different.

    A little humanity towards one's fellow man may not be a fundamental business principle... but maybe it should be.
    I can't speak for American banks, but here in Canada if you were paying your mortgage faithfully for 20 years and then had life changing difficulties, the bank would work with you to make the remaining debt manageable. It's much easier for a bank to keep you as a paying customer than to turn you into a defendant in a foreclosure or other court action.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  8. #308
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    They do matter I'm aggregate but I am not responsible for the actions of others. Let's say we share progressive as our insurance, the sheer amount of money I have to influence for you to see your premiums move a penny is more than I will ever own or ever care to own.

    I as a person present no harm to you as a person regarding this interaction
    So, bottom line, as long as everyone else is moral, you can be as immoral as you want because the impact of your immorality will be minimal. Problem is, there are an abundance of immoral people out there following your code of conduct and that makes everyone's credit card rate higher, personal loan rate higher, mortgage rate higher, insurance rates higher, etc. But hey, you apparently live in a vacuum so what do you care.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  9. #309
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    It was the banks that set the value of the mortgage with their own appraisals and when they closed on the mortgage they agreed to the use of that home for collateral for the value they appraised. This is how mortgages have always been written. That is the reason for "qualifying" buyers and doing their own appraisals, there is a risk if someone defaults. It is not against any law to default on collateralized loan and returning the collateral satisfies the debt. The idea that banks are somehow being "victimized" because of their failure to qualify mortgages and writing "balloon" interest loans in the midst of a housing bubble is preposterous and wrong. The immorality lies totally with the bankers and the billions in fines were just a slap on the wrist. They'd try the whole damn thing again if they could
    I didn't say it was against the law. I said it was immoral. Lots of things that are immoral aren't against the law. You can step out on your wife on a regular basis but it's not illegal but it sure as hell is immoral.

    Secondly, nobody forced a person to sign a contract to purchase a home at a price agreed to by both the buyer and the seller. The bank or mortgage provider wasn't a party to that contract so they didn't set the price. The mortgage provider only appraises the home's value at the time of issuing the mortgage to ensure there is sufficient equity in the home to cover the mortgage because it is illegal, fraudulent, to finance any item at a higher value than it is worth. But make no mistake, the purchaser of the home set the price, not the bank/mortgage company.

    Finally, housing prices rise and fall often cyclically, similar to the stock market. If you buy stocks on margin hoping to see the price rise and it doesn't, does that mean you can just walk away and let someone else pay for your bad bet? The same thing happened in the housing market in the US. People were buying homes they couldn't afford hoping that a new sucker would buy that home at a higher price before they had to answer the call on the debt. Unfortunately for many, the market ran out of suckers and people were stuck, the market tanked, and more unfortunately some good, honest people saw their home devalue too through no fault of their own.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  10. #310
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    Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    So, bottom line, as long as everyone else is moral, you can be as immoral as you want because the impact of your immorality will be minimal. Problem is, there are an abundance of immoral people out there following your code of conduct and that makes everyone's credit card rate higher, personal loan rate higher, mortgage rate higher, insurance rates higher, etc. But hey, you apparently live in a vacuum so what do you care.
    Me not feeling a moral obligation for a business transaction does not mean I will not honor the terms of a legally enforced contract, so the accusation that I wouldn't repay it and that I don't care doesn't work here. There are obvious penalties to not honoring a debt contract (if the contract was well written) and if I want to keep the hour or car or whatever, I will continue to pay. If I want to keep my credit score good I will continue to pay. Stuff like that. Those things benefit me so I will behave accordingly and that lowers rates for everyone.

    So why the outrage?

    I am sorry that feeling no loyalty to entities that do thing like lay people off and ruin lives so some CEO can get a fifth home bothers so many people but maybe if these companies behaved ethically I wouldn't have checked out. I am simply doing what makes sense and focusing my morality on things in life that aren't inherently evil. But if you want to feel morally obligated to such a monster, go ahead. The way businesses behave gives me no reason to care. If a business puts people ahead of money I will support them as I have means to, like I do with charities. Until then I do my job well enough to get my raises and fake that I care well enough so I can continue to eat and have shelter because this is the world people want. A world that focuses more on money than people. I do not feel obligated to such greed. I reserve my energy for people.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 01-24-15 at 07:03 AM.

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