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Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

Is there a moral obligation to repay money you borrow?

  • If you borrow money, you are morally obligated to repay it.

    Votes: 91 92.9%

  • I feel no moral obligation to repay loans I've taken out

    Votes: 7 7.1%
  • Total voters
    98
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

sangha said:
And I maintain that morality does not require the paying back of loans made by banks or other financial institutions.

When I take a loan, I create an obligation to adhere to the terms of the contract - which I do. However, the terms do not require that I pay back the loan. At least, none of the loans I've ever taken require that. They have all contained provisions that allow me to not pay back the loan and there's nothing immoral about taking a course of action that the contract has defined
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Talk about mental gymnastics. Wow! That's so head-in-the-sand bat-scheit crazy that a response is almost impossible.

What you describe are not options for you to pick and choose at your convenience. They are penalties for not adhering to the terms.

I'd be interested in seeing the wording of your contracts and would be specifically interested in the wording that lays these out as options subject to your choice.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

CanadaJohn said:
I didn't say it was against the law. I said it was immoral. Lots of things that are immoral aren't against the law. You can step out on your wife on a regular basis but it's not illegal but it sure as hell is immoral.

Secondly, nobody forced a person to sign a contract to purchase a home at a price agreed to by both the buyer and the seller. The bank or mortgage provider wasn't a party to that contract so they didn't set the price. The mortgage provider only appraises the home's value at the time of issuing the mortgage to ensure there is sufficient equity in the home to cover the mortgage because it is illegal, fraudulent, to finance any item at a higher value than it is worth. But make no mistake, the purchaser of the home set the price, not the bank/mortgage company.

Finally, housing prices rise and fall often cyclically, similar to the stock market. If you buy stocks on margin hoping to see the price rise and it doesn't, does that mean you can just walk away and let someone else pay for your bad bet? The same thing happened in the housing market in the US. People were buying homes they couldn't afford hoping that a new sucker would buy that home at a higher price before they had to answer the call on the debt. Unfortunately for many, the market ran out of suckers and people were stuck, the market tanked, and more unfortunately some good, honest people saw their home devalue too through no fault of their own.
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This is so full of falsehoods I can't believe it. I will only correct 2 of them. Banks set the amount they will lend for a mortgage based on an appraisal they hire. It would make no sense for them to lend more than a home is worth. Home prices are NOT like the stock market, with few exceptions like this bubble, home prices go up at a steady rate. I'de like to see you try to get a bank to lend you money to buy stocks.

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Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Henrin said:
The only thing I mentioned that is irrelevant is that the business in question is incorporated. It makes no difference at all how the business is legally seen or how it is put together as they are still run by people in all cases.
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I would treat a sole proprietorship very differently and interpersonal moral rules would apply
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

radcen said:
Talk about mental gymnastics. Wow! That's so head-in-the-sand bat-scheit crazy that a response is almost impossible.

What you describe are not options for you to pick and choose at your convenience. They are penalties for not adhering to the terms.
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Wrong. Foreclosure is not a penalty; it is a means to satisfy a loan

I'd be interested in seeing the wording of your contracts and would be specifically interested in the wording that lays these out as options subject to your choice.
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And I'd be interested in seeing the wording that describes them as "penalties"
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

sangha said:
That is a flat out lie

In most loans, the lender agrees that the collateral will satisfy the loan.
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A flat out lie and ignorant nonsense to boot. There is no loan contract in existence that has language as you suggest. The only remotely consistent "loan" transaction that would meet your description is a pawn shop where you drop off a piece of property, get cash for a portion of the property's value, and then either repay the cash with interest and take back your property or you forfeit the property to the pawn broker to sell.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

sangha said:
Wrong. Foreclosure is not a penalty; it is a means to satisfy a loan



And I'd be interested in seeing the wording that describes them as "penalties"
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Proving my point from a previous post. The only way you can relieve the burden of guilt from your own conscience is to disassociate the act from you (and in this post even narrow it absurdly to only one type of loan). Try as you might, it doesn't work. You have utterly failed.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Henrin said:
The only thing I mentioned that is irrelevant is that the business in question is incorporated. It makes no difference at all how the business is legally seen or how it is put together as they are still run by people in all cases.
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It makes no difference who or what the other party is. A mortgage is a promissory note. It is a written promise to repay the loan. Refusal to do as one promises is immoral and rationalizing that it's OK to renege on your promises if it's just a business instead of a person doesn't change the immorality of refusing to do what one agrees to do as a condition of a mutually beneficial agreement that one enters into willingly.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
By the way. If this thread doesn't explain why banks want LARGE down payments, nothing does. There are obviously so many people that feel no moral obligation to pay back their loans that it is extremely risky to loan money to people without enough secured collateral to cover the loan and all the court and administration costs required to recover the losses from these deadbeats.

Remember that the next time we bitch that banks are too tight with their loan conditions or that the government needs to make home ownership "more accessible" to everyone. Taxpayers shouldn't be on the hook for deadbeats defaulting any more than banks should.

My belief that people are, basically honest and good, is something I am going to have to reconsider.
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It would be interesting to flip the situation and ask if it is morally OK to promise to pay a pension and then, for completely financial reasons, declare bankruptcy and simply walk away. Many seem to see this as a valid "fix" for social security, yet somehow not for Detroit.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
My belief that people are, basically honest and good, is something I am going to have to reconsider.
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I lost faith in people so many years ago now. Politics has a tendency to show peoples true colors, so spending more than sixteen years on forums like this one has definitely changed how I see people. Though in the early days I was just a kid trying to figure out what exactly he believed, so its not like I had much of an idea of how people really were in the first place.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

ttwtt78640 said:
It would be interesting to flip the situation and ask if it is morally OK to promise to pay a pension and then, for completely financial reasons, declare bankruptcy and simply walk away. Many seem to see this as a valid "fix" for social security, yet somehow not for Detroit.
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Not really a valid apples-to-apples question as most have clearly stated that bankruptcy can be legitimate. Please rephrase the question with a more apt example.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

sangha said:
Yes, it is correct so please note how it says that foreclosure can be accomplished by "following a specific statutory procedure"

The lies you've posted are piling up
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The specific statutory procedure is a legal procedure. In Ohio where I live, it must go through a court. The lie here is yours, Sangha. Not that I'd expect you to be any more honest about that than you are about your personal financial dealings.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

radcen said:
Proving my point from a previous post. The only way you can relieve the burden of guilt from your own conscience is to disassociate the act from you (and in this post even narrow it absurdly to only one type of loan). Try as you might, it doesn't work. You have utterly failed.
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Nonsense

Why would I feel guilty for something I've never done?

Your argument is nothing but a weak attempt to rationalize the right wing desire to absolve the lender of its' obligations
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

ttwtt78640 said:
It would be interesting to flip the situation and ask if it is morally OK to promise to pay a pension and then, for completely financial reasons, declare bankruptcy and simply walk away. Many seem to see this as a valid "fix" for social security, yet somehow not for Detroit.
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It's not a fix for anything to simply declare bankruptcy and simply walk away. I think we need bankruptcy laws because $hit can happen and people might find themselves unable to discharge their obligations. It is immoral to make a promise and then subsequently decide not to live up that promise because it's more profitable not to. It's immoral for people, business or governments.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
The specific statutory procedure is a legal procedure.
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But it's not "going to court" as you dishonestly claimed the lender must do

In Ohio where I live, it must go through a court. The lie here is yours, Sangha. Not that I'd expect you to be any more honest about that than you are about your personal financial dealings.
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"Going through a court" is not the same thing as "going to court". The latter involves filing a lawsuit. The former does not.

The immoral desire to absolve the lender of its' obligations has created a need to support your position with lies.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

iguanaman said:
This is so full of falsehoods I can't believe it. I will only correct 2 of them. Banks set the amount they will lend for a mortgage based on an appraisal they hire. It would make no sense for them to lend more than a home is worth. Home prices are NOT like the stock market, with few exceptions like this bubble, home prices go up at a steady rate. I'de like to see you try to get a bank to lend you money to buy stocks.

images
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You clearly don't know what you're talking about. As for banks lending you money to buy stocks, many banks have brokerages that will allow clients to purchase stocks on margin provided they have collateral to back up their credit worthiness. Then, when the margin comes due, they either sell the stock at a profit, the margin satisfied by the sale, or they sell the stock at a loss and pay the balance from the client's own funds.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

sangha said:
Nonsense

Why would I feel guilty for something I've never done?

Your argument is nothing but a weak attempt to rationalize the right wing desire to absolve the lender of its' obligations
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Ignorance is bliss.

And I have said nothing one way or another regarding lender obligations. Not in word, nor in inference. I generally don't go for "moving the goalpost" accusations (when I see others use them), but if it is a valid concept, you are giving a textbook example.

Carry on.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

sangha said:
It doesn't describe it as a penalty, as you claimed it would
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1) That was quick. Why do I not believe you?

2) Prove it. Scan and post. The complete document(s), so we can be assured you're not conveniently leaving something out. You may redact your name, address, and account numbers, but nothing else.

Note that the word "penalty" has synonyms.

ETA: Why did you not claim again that these other means were included specifically as options? Yes, "options" has synonyms, too, but you're no longer claiming that. Why is that?
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Henrin said:
I lost faith in people so many years ago now. Politics has a tendency to show peoples true colors, so spending more than sixteen years on forums like this one has definitely changed how I see people. Though in the early days I was just a kid trying to figure out what exactly he believed, so its not like I had much of an idea of how people really were in the first place.
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I knew there was some small percentage of the population that would engage in the immoral raationalizations we're seeing demonstrated in the arguments from the likes of Sangha and Tacomancer. But the poll indicates that it's much deeper and more widespread than I thought. For some reason, there are only three names listed in this public poll for the 46 "votes" that it's OK to welsh on loans.

Or is it possible that only three people voted that way and that someone with admin privileges doctored the count in the control panel? What's up with that? Is it possible that people can hide their ID on a public vote? That doesn't make sense, either. Why would someone be ashamed of their beliefs unless they knew they were shameful?
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

radcen said:
Ignorance is bliss.

And I have said nothing one way or another regarding lender obligations. Not in word, nor in inference.
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YOu most certainly have. The agreement obligates the lender to accept the collateral to satisfy the loan. The argument that doing so is somehow a violation of the terms of the agreement infers that the lender is absolved of any obligation to accept the collateral.

Both the lender and the borrower are obligated to adhere to the terms of the contract. The contract specifies that the loan can be satisfied by either paying the lender cash on a set schedule of some sort, or through foreclosure on the collateral. There is nothing immoral about fulfilling a contract by a method the contract defines as acceptable. If the lender was not willing to accept the collateral as payment, they were free to not sign the contract.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

radcen said:
1) That was quick. Why do I not believe you?

2) Prove it. Scan and post. The complete document(s), so we can be assured you're not conveniently leaving something out. You may redact your name, address, and account numbers, but nothing else.

Note that the word "penalty" has synonyms.
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1) Don't know. Don't care

2) request denied - but feel free to do for yourself what you ask of me
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

radcen said:
Not really a valid apples-to-apples question as most have clearly stated that bankruptcy can be legitimate. Please rephrase the question with a more apt example.
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The example is apt, as it puts the shoe on the other foot.
 
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