Do the actions of ISIS and al Qaeda represent the veiws of all Muslims?[w:23]

mbig said:

Another Ridiculous Poll.

NO one ever suggested ISIS etc represents the "views of ALL Muslims/the entire faith."

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This GARBAGE string is just a variant of the "All Muslims are terrorists" STRAWMAN.

At least make it a little interesting by using "Majority" or "Minority" or "nothing significant" instead of "Entire"/aka 100%!

How Frigging Nonsensical and guaranteed overwhelming and [Worthless] result.

How about for your next POS poll, "Louis Farrakhan represents ALL Blacks"?
or "ALL Blacks are criminals, Yes or No?"

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My guess is that someone in the USA has suggested this and if we do enough digging we can find a link to support that. :roll:

shrubnose said:

How long did it take the Christians?

We should give the Muslims at least as long, eh? :roll:

Then after that period of time is over with we'll get back to finding fault with the way that they run their religion.

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Heya SN. :2wave: As Hatuey put it, over 1400 hundred years.

Nah, they can't even come up with a decent excuse in todays day and age. Would have been easier for them if they had done it back then when the Christians were doing it. At least they couldn't use any excuses over technology.

Plus lets not go with that.....Patience is a virtue and stuff like that.

I'm with Egypt's Sisi on this.....chop chop, get to work. Isn't that what he told all their Holymen who are the So Called leaders of the Sunni Doctrine in Egypt?

MMC said:

Heya SN. :2wave: As Hatuey put it, over 1400 hundred years.

Nah, they can't even come up with a decent excuse in todays day and age. Would have been easier for them if they had done it back then when the Christians were doing it. At least they couldn't use any excuses over technology.

Plus lets not go with that.....

Patience is a virtue and stuff like that.

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I'm with Egypt's Sisi on this.....chop chop, get to work. Isn't that what he told all their Holymen who are the So Called leaders of the Sunni Doctrine in Egypt?

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What do we need? Ans = Patience.

When do we need it? Ans = Now!!

shrubnose said:

My guess is that someone in the USA has suggested this and if we do enough digging we can find a link to support that. :roll:

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Isn't that sort of like this?


US should stop Syria not ISIS: Saudi Prince.....

U.S. policymakers should concentrate on eliminating the threat posed by Syrian President Bashar al-Assad instead of Islamic State militants in Iraq and Syria, according to an influential member of the Saudi Arabian royal family. Prince Turki bin Faisal Al Saud told CNBC at the World Economic Forum in Davos that the reason why Islamic State exists is because of what's happening in Syria and has called on U.S. authorities including the government, the Central Intelligence Agency and the military to act.

The prince, who is a former intelligence chief in Saudi Arabia and ambassador to the U.S., said that the United States is currently "leaving Assad to continue his murderous campaign." .....snip~

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/us-stop-syria-not-isis-095231188.html


Hows that Muslim Sectarian Divide over Religion working? Here the Saud are still worried about Assad. But only due to Assad killing the Sunni Rebel/Terrorists from taking over his Country. Pretty much leaving Iran as the only Ruling Shia in Power left. Even though all of Iran is not Shia.

Also note.....how the Saud, tremble and make excuses for what they cannot do on their own. Never have been able to. Which is take out Assad's Tribe of Syrians. The only remaining DNA left to the Original Syrian Inhabitants.

The Saud always has to get others to do what they are not Man enough to do.....nor Honorable enough to do. Which is Deal with Assad themselves.

MMC said:

Did the Christian leaders and heretics end up being tried and condemned?

Put in Newspapers, taken into courts. Court Law and before Kings, and or some other Royal title.

All of it has relevance to what you said. But due to it not just following what you said. But due to some realities that you forgot with all that you were saying......Do their Clerics make the journey to Mecca? From whatever country?????

Is that not how they spread the Word for those that are illiterate. Has not the Taliban showed for generations on what knowledge is passed and how? How about those Indonesian Clerics that are Muslim?

Also did you forget the Arab spring? Did you forget how their Clerics used Social media to get in touch with each other in different countries. Imagine that!

What happened? How many decades do we have to be told.....how many have been taught by word of mouth from those regions of the world that lack in education. Which says nothing of those who are Highly informed and knows exactly what is going. Like the King of the Saud and Sunni!

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Interesting. You seem to be under the impression that the Arab Spring - which was a contained urban event - can be extrapolated to some sort of pan-Islamic movement to deal with terrorism. However, the reality is that the Arab Spring had its own set of constraints which didn't really have much to do with Islam or for that matter religion.

The Arab Spring (emphasis on Arab as opposed to Muslim Spring) spread in urban environments. It was a call for regime change that was worlds away from where most Muslims live and more importantly, had little to do with Islam itself. As such, there wasn't really an Arab Spring. There was an Egyptian Spring, an Tunisian Spring, etc. With that said, they were individual revolutions which were spread in urban centers and had little impact on the rest of the Muslim world.

Secondly, the people it did spread to did not join it based on an idea of solidarity with people of other countries against oppressive regimes, but the belief that they needed to address the situations in their own countries. It was a societal event restricted to mostly urban people in a small group of countries which shared similar regimes and situations. However, even in the supposed magnitude you claim it had, it failed to even register in countries like Pakistan (158 million) or Singapore (249 million), India (177 million), Bangladesh (144 million) where over 60% of all Muslims live. Hell, I could go down the list of Muslim countries and you'd find that the "Arab Spring" really had nothing to do with the Muslim world and even in countries with equally oppressive regimes, it failed to pick up any steam.

With all of that said, you really seem to not be able to understand that this is a world where there a hundreds of millions of people. Most of whom are concerned with personal situations like earning money, buying food, taking their kids to school etc. If the majority of Christians don't take time out of their day to tell us that they oppose things we all find abhorrent, what makes you think that the average moderate Muslim would?

So with this all said, even if your idea on what Muslims can do held any water, it would be restricted to situations in their countries and would have nothing to do with the West or for that matter international terrorism. Remember, Muslim countries deal with terrorism in their own territories. Asking them to address it like they did the Arab Spring would literally mean that most of the Muslim world would have nothing to do with addressing terrorism, and whomever did, would deal with it on his own land. So... the status quo.

Hatuey said:

Interesting. You seem to be under the impression that the Arab Spring - which was a contained urban event - can be extrapolated to some sort of pan-Islamic movement to deal with terrorism. However, the reality is that the Arab Spring had its own set of constraints which didn't really have much to do with Islam or for that matter religion.


Secondly, the people it did spread to did not join it based on an idea of solidarity with people of other countries against oppressive regimes, but the belief that they needed to address the situations in their own countries. It was a societal event restricted to mostly urban people in a small group of countries which shared similar regimes and situations. However, even in the supposed magnitude you claim it had, it failed to even register in countries like Pakistan (158 million) or Singapore (249 million), India (177 million), Bangladesh (144 million) where over 60% of all Muslims live. Hell, I could go down the list of Muslim countries and you'd find that the "Arab Spring" really had nothing to do with the Muslim world and even in countries with equally oppressive regimes, it failed to pick up any steam.

With all of that said, you really seem to not be able to understand that this is a world where there a hundreds of millions of people. Most of whom are concerned with personal situations like earning money, buying food, taking their kids to school etc. If the majority of Christians don't take time out of their day to tell us that they oppose things we all find abhorrent, what makes you think that the average moderate Muslim would?

So with this all said, even if your idea on what Muslims can do held any water, it would be restricted to situations in their countries and would have nothing to do with the West or for that matter international terrorism. Remember, Muslim countries deal with terrorism in their own territories. Asking them to address it like they did the Arab Spring would literally mean that most of the Muslim world would have nothing to do with addressing terrorism, and whomever did, would deal with it on his own land.

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No I understand it fully and completely.....just like there were 4 times that amount of Christians at the time who were Illiterate. Also that they didn't have TV or a radio. Didn't know what was going on with the Leaders of their Religion. Until whoever showed up and brought the Word. Just like how the word is Spread thru the Muslim Clerics.

Yes they joined in after their Clerics spread the word. Masses of them who didn't know anything at all. That's what I just pointed out with their Leaders of the Sunni Doctrine. Doesn't matter even if they understood fully what was going on. But they did Riot as told to do.

The Egyptian Sunni Cleric sent out word thru Social Media. The next day.....Pakistan, Indonesia, and several Countries(23 All Muslim Majority) all Rioted US Embassies and US Assets at the time. You can look it up. There was no mistaking what the Egyptian Sunni Cleric did. Which is why some wanted him to be taken into Custody. But as you recall, that wouldn't happen with Morsi of the MB.

Also if being honest.....it still would fall to all those Muslims that are experiencing first hand the Heretics killing their own Clerics and people for not adhering to their Version of the Sharia law. All those countries that war and conflict is taking place. As well as all the Countries where the Refugees are.

I doubt you can say there are many(Muslims) who do not know what is taking place with Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Qatar, UAE, Kuwait, Yemen, Bahrain, Morocco, Afghanistan and or Pakistan. That are in the region and countries where it all is ongoing daily events

Which again doesn't count Shia and Sunni Clerics who spread the teachings.

I doubt any can say I do not understand or know much about the whole entire issue. But then I understand just like the Christians and Hindus, that they had to be the ones to stop their Religions from being taken over by heretics. That they had to get out and condemn and take back their religion. Which can you say the Christians did not go to war or that the Hindus didn't, to remove the abomination? Did it take physical confrontation and killing? Did it take educating and teaching?

So it took action. Despite all those concerned about their daily lives and what wasn't around them for the time being.

MMC said:

No I understand it fully and completely.....just like there were 4 times that amount of Christians at the time who were Illiterate. Also that they didn't have TV or a radio. Didn't know what was going on with the Leaders of their Religion. Until whoever showed up and brought the Word. Just like how the word is Spread thru the Muslim Clerics.

Yes they joined in after their Clerics spread the word. Masses of them who didn't know anything at all. That's what I just pointed out with their Leaders of the Sunni Doctrine. Doesn't matter even if they understood fully what was going on. But they did Riot as told to do.

The Egyptian Sunni Cleric sent out word thru Social Media. The next day.....Pakistan, Indonesia, and several Countries(23 All Muslim Majority) all Rioted US Embassies and US Assets at the time. You can look it up. There was no mistaking what the Egyptian Sunni Cleric did. Which is why some wanted him to be taken into Custody. But as you recall, that wouldn't happen with Morsi of the MB.

Also if being honest.....it still would fall to all those Muslims that are experiencing first hand the Heretics killing their own Clerics and people for not adhering to their Version of the Sharia law. All those countries that war and conflict is taking place. As well as all the Countries where the Refugees are.

I doubt you can say there are many(Muslims) who do not know what is taking place with Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Qatar, UAE, Kuwait, Yemen, Bahrain, Morocco, Afghanistan and or Pakistan.

Which again doesn't count Shia and Sunni Clerics who spread the teachings.

I doubt any can say I do not understand or know much about the whole entire issue. But then I understand just like the Christians and Hindus, that they had to be the ones to stop their Religions from being taken over by heretics. That they had to get out and condemn and take back their religion. Which can you say the Christians did not go to war or that the Hindus didn't, to remove the abomination? Did it take physical confrontation and killing? Did it take educating and teaching?

So it took action. Despite all those concerned about their daily lives and what wasn't around them for the time being.

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You keep discussing an urban movement and you ignore the fact that the majority of Muslims simply don't live in urban settings, or for that matter stand on a position where an informed political decision is something they'd even care to divulge. With that said, the majority of Muslims didn't partake in the Arab Spring because it was A) Arab in nature and B) had little to do with Islam. You keep ignoring the basic notion that even if some Muslims know what goes on in other countries, they're under absolutely no duty to do anything about it. Again, you brought up the Arab Spring which didn't exist outside of Arab countries and outside of urban centers. If Muslims are such a cohesive group of people and your suggestion is possible, why didn't the Arab Spring become the Muslim Spring? The answer is obvious.

As far as to this quote: I understand just like the Christians and Hindus, that they had to be the ones to stop their Religions from being taken over by heretics.

There is no reason to engage in hyperbole. Islam isn't being taken over by "heretics". There is a literal majority of the Muslim world that isn't at war and couldn't care less what is going on in some Muslim countries in the Middle East because their countries are doing fine. Again, this general disconnect is verified by the fact that the Arab Spring failed to become the Muslim Spring. This cohesive body that you feel Muslims constitute, doesn't exist. It never has. People address issues in their own countries and given their circumstances. So with that said, why would a Muslim in Indonesia care about what is going on in Iraq? Why would a Muslim in Egypt care about what goes on in France? Did Christians in the US help stop extremists from passing laws making homosexuality punishable by death in Uganda? Are Christians in Germany fighting off Kony's extremism? Nope. People address issues on their own land. Expecting them to do something about what is happening in other countries, to make some people feel better is absurd if not entirely unlikely. There isn't a single group that has done that in the history of religion.

Here is a simple question: What should the average rural person in Egypt do about international terrorism?

Hatuey said:

You keep discussing an urban movement and you ignore the fact that the majority of Muslims simply don't live in urban settings, or for that matter stand on a position where an informed political decision is something they'd even care to divulge. With that said, the majority of Muslims didn't partake in the Arab Spring because it was A) Arab in nature and B) had little to do with Islam. You keep ignoring the basic notion that even if some Muslims know what goes on in other countries, they're under absolutely no duty to do anything about it. Again, you brought up the Arab Spring which failed outside of Arab countries.

As far as to this quote: I understand just like the Christians and Hindus, that they had to be the ones to stop their Religions from being taken over by heretics.

There is no reason to engage in hyperbole. Islam isn't being taken over by "heretics". There is a literal majority of the Muslim world that isn't at war and couldn't care less what is going on in some Muslim countries in the Middle East because their countries are doing fine. Again, this general disconnect is verified by the fact that the Arab Spring failed to become the Muslim Spring. This cohesive body that you feel Muslims constitute, doesn't exist. It never has. People address issues in their own countries and given their circumstances. So with that said, why would a Muslim in Indonesia care about what is going on in Iraq? Why would a Muslim in Egypt care about what goes on in France? Did Christians in the US help stop extremists from passing laws making homosexuality punishable by death in Uganda? Are Christians in Germany fighting off Kony's extremism? Nope. People address issues on their own land. Expecting them to do something about what is happening in other countries, to make some people feel better is absurd if not entirely unlikely. There isn't a single group that has done that in the history of religion.

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Urban movement you use to classify something that took place with Muslims that you explain out are illiterate. Doesn't change the fact of what I stated. Nor does that even work with those all throughout Indonesia. Nor does it change the fact that all those Christians didn't know what was going on with their religion at the time when it was happening. Nor the Hindus.

It isn't hyperbole.....the fact is in the ME. your concept doesn't play out. Moreover.....The Leader of the Saud and his Ascension. Was directly challenged by Baghdadi.

Moreover you still can't seem to identify with what is also Tribal with their Religion.

Have to head out to work....be back in a few hrs. Depending on the roads out in Indiana.

MMC said:

Urban movement you use to classify something that took place with Muslims that you explain out are illiterate

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An urban movement which had little to do with Muslims but was actually embraced by Christians and atheists on the same land. Again, it was the Arab Spring. Not the Muslim spring. There is a reason it was named that way. It was because many of the people who supported it in those countries weren't necessarily Muslims even if Muslims made up a large percentage of the populations in these countries. There is also the fact that these uprisings weren't Muslim in origin, but Arabic. Again, the Arab Spring wasn't even a religious situation and in most countries, it varied in response. For example, whereas some countries descended into warfare the minute their springs started, others like Egypt have remained relatively calm and with little violence in comparison to Libya and Syria. Why is this? Why didn't the entire Muslim world in the Middle East give one united response? Well, the answer is that there was never an multinational effort in the Arab Spring. These were regional events constrained by their specific regions as well as specific factors that didn't speak to the rest of the Muslim world anymore than terrorism would.

. Doesn't change the fact of what I stated. Nor does that even work with those all throughout Indonesia. Nor does it change the fact that all those Christians didn't know what was going on with their religion at the time when it was happening. Nor the Hindus.

It isn't hyperbole.....the fact is in the ME. your concept doesn't play out. Moreover.....The Leader of the Saud and his Ascension. Was directly challenged by Baghdadi.

Moreover you still can't seem to identify with what is also Tribal with their Religion.

Have to head out to work....be back in a few hrs. Depending on the roads out in Indiana.

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Throwing out more red herrings doesn't change the fact that Islam really isn't being taken over by "heretics". As I've already stated: the majority of Muslims live in countries which couldn't be further away from ISIL and had nothing to do with the Arab Spring. More importantly, they simply don't live in a purely political world where foreign affairs are more important than putting food on the table. Whether some cleric in ISIL (which is a multinational organization) challenged a regime or not doesn't change that. How Muslims deal with these issues is no different than how the average American deals with terrorism. They simply don't have it in mind anymore than they do the issues in Iraq, France or wherever. They go on about their day and if they hear a bomb exploded 2500 miles away or even 300 miles away in Cairo, they say some version of "oh wow" and then move along with their day.

Hatuey said:

Here is a simple question: What should the average rural person in Egypt do about international terrorism?

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Join Pegida. :2razz:

PoS said:

Join Pegida. :2razz:

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Oh... you're smart.

Some ISIS views are represented in Islam, some are open to interpretation.

The followers or Islam are Muslims. Some Muslims believe that ISIS' views represents them, some do not.

Religion is a rogue political party. One cannot make broad generalized statements such as these and point out the radicals members in a party.

Hatuey said:

An urban movement which had little to do with Muslims but was actually embraced by Christians and atheists on the same land. Again, it was the Arab Spring. Not the Muslim spring. There is a reason it was named that way. It was because many of the people who supported it in those countries weren't necessarily Muslims even if Muslims made up a large percentage of the populations in these countries. There is also the fact that these uprisings weren't Muslim in origin, but Arabic. Again, the Arab Spring wasn't even a religious situation and in most countries, it varied in response. For example, whereas some countries descended into warfare the minute their springs started, others like Egypt have remained relatively calm and with little violence in comparison to Libya and Syria. Why is this? Why didn't the entire Muslim world in the Middle East give one united response? Well, the answer is that there was never an multinational effort in the Arab Spring. These were regional events constrained by their specific regions as well as specific factors that didn't speak to the rest of the Muslim world anymore than terrorism would.



Throwing out more red herrings doesn't change the fact that Islam really isn't being taken over by "heretics". As I've already stated: the majority of Muslims live in countries which couldn't be further away from ISIL and had nothing to do with the Arab Spring. More importantly, they simply don't live in a purely political world where foreign affairs are more important than putting food on the table. Whether some cleric in ISIL (which is a multinational organization) challenged a regime or not doesn't change that. How Muslims deal with these issues is no different than how the average American deals with terrorism. They simply don't have it in mind anymore than they do the issues in Iraq, France or wherever. They go on about their day and if they hear a bomb exploded 2500 miles away or even 300 miles away in Cairo, they say some version of "oh wow" and then move along with their day.

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The Arab Spring.....the Arab Movement. Its a false idea from the get go.....as once again you don't have a clue as to how the message is spread, from those Clerics.

Lets see you put up those numbers with the ME and Africa together and see what amount of Muslims make up the Demographic.

Knock the BS off with the red herring crap. You were wrong on the Heretics gaining ground, wrong on they are not subjugating others, wrong about them not destroying others Culture and Religions. As it is real simple to use one incident from the Hebdo issue. To point out about all those illiterates that you were harping about. Yet have no ties to any Terrorists or Islamic Radicals, yet go and burn down Christian Churches and kill Christians. All due to hearing about what took place in France. Days afterwards.

Seems Sisi and Egyptian Muslim disagrees with you as well. Which is why he gave a speech in front of the Same School that BO peep showed up to give his wasted speech. To Tell those Sunni Clerics to get up off their dead asses and start preaching what Islam is about. To take back their Religion. To Speak out to the youth. To not allow those like ISIS, AQ Ansar Al Sharia, to gain control and dictate the course of Islam.

Take it back from who? Who was he talking about? You don't want to play with terminology and say Terrorists do you. Face the facts.....Islamic Attacks have increased throughout the entire planet. You want to play with terminology and call them radicals. That which they would call heretics too.

Also millions of Christians never participated in taking out the Radicals/Heretics in their religion too. Despite the reality that was in their face. 2/3rds didn't even know what was going on with the Leadership for their own religion. Same as the Hindus. So it will be the same for the Muslims. Except they don't have the excuses of those from more ancient times or time from the far past.

Unitedwestand13 said:

Do the actions of ISIS and al Qaeda represent the veiws of all Muslims?

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No more than the actions of pedophile priests represent the views of Catholics, the actions of Warren Jeffs represent the views of Mormon, the actions of the phelps clan represent the views of Baptists, and so on.

Do the veiws of ISIS represent the veiws of all Islam. Wouldn't a better question be: How many Muslims support similar views as ISIS? I think there's been some Gallup polls on that

Belief is the same throughout. Maybe methodology has some differences. Same people, same beliefs.

CRUE CAB said:

Belief is the same throughout. Maybe methodology has some differences. Same people, same beliefs.

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Well, that's interesting.

Do, say, Catholics, Mormons, Baptists and those wacky snake handlers all believe the same things? They're all Christians, after all.

Joze said:

Do the veiws of ISIS represent the veiws of all Islam. Wouldn't a better question be: How many Muslims support similar views as ISIS? I think there's been some Gallup polls on that

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It's very hard to poll the muslims in the middle east. Millions live in extreme poverty and have never been asked a poll question by some guy from Gallup.

Kobie said:

Well, that's interesting.

Do, say, Catholics, Mormons, Baptists and those wacky snake handlers all believe the same things? They're all Christians, after all.

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Pretty much to a point. But hey, at least we are not killing teenagers for watching soccer.

Kobie said:

Well, that's interesting.

Do, say, Catholics, Mormons, Baptists and those wacky snake handlers all believe the same things? They're all Christians, after all.

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No fair! The standard change when it comes to Christianity. They're allowed to be distinct and different and ... well liberal. Muslims are not and no matter how much evidence you have showing that Muslims aren't this contiguous group of people with the same mentality, I won't admit otherwise!

11Bravo said:

It's very hard to poll the muslims in the middle east. Millions live in extreme poverty and have never been asked a poll question by some guy from Gallup.

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Well, lets start with these guys.....





Make them an Offer they can't refuse.

MMC said:

Well, lets start with these guys.....

Make them an Offer they can't refuse.

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Sure, just don't send a gay guy to do the polling. Since they have "morality police", and being gay is highly illegal in Islamic Sharia law, it could cause some problems! But yea, they're peaceful ;-)

CRUE CAB said:

Pretty much to a point. But hey, at least we are not killing teenagers for watching soccer.

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Nope. Christians are killing and raping women for simply living in the wrong country's villages. See how your absurd arguments work? :shrug:

Hatuey said:

Nope. Christians are killing and raping women for simply living in the wrong country's villages. See how your absurd arguments work? :shrug:

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He wasn't arguing anything. He was referring to this:

ISIS executes 13 teens for watching soccer | New York Post

Muslims killing kids for watching "Western" programs.