View Poll Results: Is congressional districting according to race justified racial discrimination?

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Thread: Is congressional districting according to race justified racial discrimination?

  1. #11
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    Re: Is congressional districting according to race justified racial discrimination?

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    Well, then lets turn the tables a bit (sorry I missed the other thread.) If there is such a thing as "justified racial discrimination" when it comes to congressional redistricting then are we not making an argument for outright segregation of the populace? It seems to me that if we are suggesting that representation should best match the racial make up of a community, then by source the community has to be overwhelmingly one race to ensure pure outcome of that representation under "justified racial discrimination." Or, segregation by race. And if follows, then there is no reason to stop at race but also extend to age, perhaps income level, etc. I mean, why not? Since we are talking about "justified racial discrimination" then why not have "justified ageism discrimination?"
    Good points. Having said that, if we are to have a representative democracy, should not the representatives reflect the demographics of the population? If they do not, and simply represent the interests of say white males, is that actually a representative democracy? As such it may be that drawing congressional district lines in such a way is actually justified racial discrimination. I honestly don't know at this point. Just throwing it back in your court.

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    Re: Is congressional districting according to race justified racial discrimination?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Again, self explanatory.
    It seems reasonable to draw districts in such a way as to ensure minorities get representation (if you assume the all will vote based on their minority attribute and not substance). Other than that drawing districts is pretty arbitrary. Should a large city have two districts split in half north to south, east to west, circle within a circle?

    Though I suppose if you draw arbitrarily you arent showing preference which makes it fair. If not the best outcome.

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    Re: Is congressional districting according to race justified racial discrimination?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Does not matter-they support govt imposed racism.
    Does not the right do the same when they intentionally support policies meant to appeal to the racist sentiment in white males? You are familiar with the work of Lee Atwater, right?

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    Re: Is congressional districting according to race justified racial discrimination?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    It seems reasonable to draw districts in such a way as to ensure minorities get representation (if you assume the all will vote based on their minority attribute and not substance). Other than that drawing districts is pretty arbitrary. Should a large city have two districts split in half north to south, east to west, circle within a circle?

    Though I suppose if you draw arbitrarily you arent showing preference which makes it fair. If not the best outcome.
    It appears to me to be reasonable, and it may be it is an example of justified racial discrimination.

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    Re: Is congressional districting according to race justified racial discrimination?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Again, self explanatory.
    Gerrymandering has always been used to distort voting populations to the benefit of certain elements. That is the flaw. The human flaw, I guess.

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    Re: Is congressional districting according to race justified racial discrimination?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Does not the right do the same when they intentionally support policies meant to appeal to the racist sentiment in white males? You are familiar with the work of Lee Atwater, right?
    What policies would that be, or is this just another magical "dog whistle" of the left?

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    Re: Is congressional districting according to race justified racial discrimination?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Good points. Having said that, if we are to have a representative democracy, should not the representatives reflect the demographics of the population? If they do not, and simply represent the interests of say white males, is that actually a representative democracy? As such it may be that drawing congressional district lines in such a way is actually justified racial discrimination. I honestly don't know at this point. Just throwing it back in your court.
    (I had to go get another cup of coffee for this conversation, and it may get philosophical depending on how many cups I go through this am.)

    I tend to say no, if we are going to stay a constitutional republic then whole idea is to have elected officials govern within the confines of a constitution. And no where in those confines is the idea that to represent a district one has to demographically match the constituents by race, or by age, or by sex, or by income level, etc. If it were otherwise we would already see stronger elements of racial segregation today and the make up of Congress would more match the racial demographic make up of the US. Right now we have roughly 12.6% of the nation that is black, roughly 8.9% of the 114th Congress is black. They still do not add up, but still I am unsure that means that Congress cannot be reflective of the will of the people because of that roughly 3.7 point gap for the black population. I am sure though that we have plenty of black voters that feel otherwise and it gives us this problem of what to, Constitutionally, to ensure outcome.

    These are the reasons I initially answered the thread with there is no such thing as justified racial discrimination, even if the tables were flipped and 15% of Congress was black with the same 12.6% of the population being black I doubt that alone means a higher degree of political goals obtained. I mean think about it, we have now had a two term black president and by demographics and economic data blacks are worse off now than before, and in just about all categories blacks lag behind whites when it comes to unemployment, labor participation, movement up the income quintiles, education, etc. When it comes to the percentage of Americans on one or more forms of government assistance (social safety nets) the results are just as bad when broken down by racial lines.

    In this case I have little choice but to suggest the argument for justified racial discrimination by default means continuing to go with very specific representative district lines and eventually involve segregation to effect representative outcome. That further illustrates the political window dressing today's representatives have given us with this effort to ensure political outcome. So now we get to evolve past today's politics being all about treasury promises, we get to include manufactured results for office but little results for those that elected them.
    "Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people." - Penn Jillette.

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    Re: Is congressional districting according to race justified racial discrimination?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    What policies would that be, or is this just another magical "dog whistle" of the left?
    Policies such as it's anti-affirmative action stance and it's stance on welfare. It's one thing to support a policy because simply think it is the right thing to do, it's quite another when you do it because you think it will get you the votes of racists. That is a big problem I have with some elements on the right. They make it difficult for someone like me, who can see SOME wisdom in conservative ideology. Here's Lee Atwater articulating his infamous "Southern Strategy."


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    Re: Is congressional districting according to race justified racial discrimination?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    No, that's not what I am asking. The question is is the practice of deliberately drawing congressional district lines to favor or disfavor a particular racial group justified racial discrimination. That is the question. Clear?
    No you still have not clarified. If a state was required to do it because the federal government required it, is it justified to follow the law?

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    Re: Is congressional districting according to race justified racial discrimination?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You seem to be confusing intended outcome of discrimination with the process of discrimination. You cannot turn a minority into a majority; you can either concentrate minorities into special districts thus giving them a token representative (still easily ignored) or spread them as thinly as possible hoping to minimize the impact of their vote in that manner.
    You cannot change a person's immutable characteristics like race and gender, but it is certainly possible to put them in the position of being the deciding votes, king-makers if you prefer.

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