View Poll Results: Do you believe in morality?

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    56 38.62%
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Thread: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

  1. #171
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    To hell with my opinion then, I must think like you.

    Thought experiments are not reality. Most are set up in a fashion to avoid endless debate over relentless distractions and goal post moving. If you dont like thought experiments then boom its gone dont get stuck on it. Move on. Thought experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I used the scenarios to convey a position, which I expanded on but you were too busy trying to bust the scenarios to bother debating any of those concepts. Look past the scenario to the big picture. The Homosapiens have historical objective evidence of knowing the basics of right and wrong as a species. We have a long history of disdaining certain activity and behaviour. On a individual level it is very subjective. In groups it is still subjective. In larger groups it is still subjective. As a whole though it is so subjective for our species that certain behaviour and actions are generally wrong. We are just animals and as such we behave as our species dictates in the grand scheme of categorical representational classification would have it. We can rationalize yes, we can choose to go against the grain, but that is individually subjective and doesnt change the anthropological view of our species (that which divides us from homo erectus etc and the difference between archaic homosapiens and modern homosapeins). We are a social species and like all social species there is a basic code the species adheres to (generally as a species). Behaviors and actions that threaten the species are frowned on and through evolutionary process kept at bay. If we start killing everyone that we see, and that were to become the norm then our species would not last very long. For humans the norm isnt to kill. How many people have you killed in your lifetime. How about the people that you know closely, how many people have they killed? If your answer is positive for either/or then you are a minority meaning that the majority of the people around you do not kill people for no reason or even for some reason. Then objectively humans think that killing is wrong.
    The vast majority of people on this planet do not think all killing, even if humans, is wrong though, and what they consider justified or morally unjustified killing is dependent on their individual moral codes. No two people are likely to have the exact same moral codes.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  2. #172
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post


    Look. All wishful thinking and anti-Christian mental gymnastics aside, the simple fact of the matter is that the changes in question here took place in Christianity societies, and only in Christian societies, or societies closely related to them.

    The modern Western approach to morality is one, which at its core, owes its existence to the Abrahamic approach to objective social morality. That much is undeniable. I also don't think it's any coincidence that every attempt to go back to a more loosely regulated pre-Christian style of morality has resulted in the re-emergence of "socially acceptable" abuses and misbehaviors similar to those which existed in the pre-Christian world either.

    Now, again, from a true nihilistic perspective, that is more or less irrelevant, as there's really no reason to consider the Abrahamic morality in question as necessarily being "correct" in the first place. However, trying to deny the role two thousand years of strictly enforced Abrahamic values have played in shaping your own - modern Western - culture, and the sense of "right and wrong" it has engendered is simply idiotic.

    Even many secular philosophers and moralists have been forced to admit as much in recent years.
    Did you learn that in church? Christianity moral lol The bible is full of immoral acts by modern western standards. Seriously havent you ever read the bible?

  3. #173
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Did you learn that in church? Christianity moral lol The bible is full of immoral acts by modern western standards. Seriously havent you ever read the bible?
    Have you read any Greek or Germanic pagan mythology lately?

    Read the last several posts which you obviously skipped.

    Whatever you want to say about the Old Testament (most of which was negated by Christ in the New Testament anyway), it generally is closer to what Modern Westerners tend to believe with regards to morality than what most of the rest of the world was up to at the time.

    Ya know... Unless you want to defend practices like human sacrifice (widely seen among Northern European peoples, Phoenician peoples in the Mediterranean, and even among the Greeks, on occasion), infanticide (pretty much everyone besides the Egyptians and Jews), cannibalism (Northern Europe again), and casual pedophilia (Greece and Rome), of course.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 01-16-15 at 05:41 PM.

  4. #174
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The vast majority of people on this planet do not think all killing, even if humans, is wrong though, and what they consider justified or morally unjustified killing is dependent on their individual moral codes. No two people are likely to have the exact same moral codes.
    But I didnt say all killing. I suppose that I should have explained that but I thought you would not nit pick that point. And yes from a individual point of view you are correct. But if we analyze the entirety of homosapeins killing itself while justifiabley subjectectively is by in large taboo for the majority of humans. Any controlling group that practices actual genocide is viewed as being in the wrong. All nations have laws against murder. Every country in existence on Earth right that has a legit country has to a varying degree outlawed the act of murder. Obviously those laws are not applied equally and allow certain types of murder depending on many different beliefs worldwide. The underlying common is that all countries indeed outlaw it. And thats how its been historically.

  5. #175
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Have you read any Greek or Germanic pagan mythology lately?

    Read the last several posts which you obviously skipped.

    Whatever you want to say about the Old Testament (most of which was negated by Christ in the New Testament anyway), it generally is closer to what Modern Westerners tend to believe with regards to morality than what most of the rest of the world was up to at the time.

    Ya know... Unless you want to defend practices like human sacrifice (widely seen among Northern European peoples, Phoenician peoples in the Mediterranean, and even among the Greeks, on occasion), infanticide (pretty much everyone besides the Egyptians and Jews), cannibalism (Northern Europe again), and casual pedophilia (Greece and Rome), of course.
    Yea well of course you believe that.

    CNS Spectrums: The Neurobiology of Moral Behavior: Review and Neuropsychiatric Implications

    "Introduction

    For years, scientists and philosophers have proposed a sixth human sense for morality. Recently, there is increasing evidence that there is, in fact, an intrinsic morality network. The presence of a moral sense is consistent with a focus of human evolution on mechanisms of individual behavior that maximize survival in social groups. Evolution has promoted social cooperation through emotions against harming others, a need for fairness and the enforcement of moral rules, empathy and “Theory of Mind” (ToM), as well as other behaviors that feed into the concept of morality. ToM is the ability to appreciate the thoughts, feelings, and beliefs of others.


    If there is a “moral sense,” then there should be specific brain mechanisms for morality as well as brain disordered patients with impaired morality. Convergent evidence that this is the case comes from studies of functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) in normals, neurological investigations of sociopaths, and the examination of patients with focal brain lesions or with frontotemporal dementia (FTD). This neurobiological evidence points to an automatic, emotionally-mediated moral network that is centered in the ventromedial prefrontal cortex (VMPFC), particularly in the right hemisphere. Although this literature is still young, disparate, and heavily reliant on fMRI correlations, the convergence of evidence supports the presence of a neuromoral brain network. This report reviews this burgeoning literature and discusses the theoretical implications for brain-behavior relationships, and its clinical and legal implications. Although much of the presented evidence is still debated, a picture of moral neuroscience is beginning to emerge."


  6. #176
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Yea well of course you believe that.

    CNS Spectrums: The Neurobiology of Moral Behavior: Review and Neuropsychiatric Implications

    "Introduction

    For years, scientists and philosophers have proposed a sixth human sense for morality. Recently, there is increasing evidence that there is, in fact, an intrinsic morality network. The presence of a moral sense is consistent with a focus of human evolution on mechanisms of individual behavior that maximize survival in social groups. Evolution has promoted social cooperation through emotions against harming others, a need for fairness and the enforcement of moral rules, empathy and “Theory of Mind” (ToM), as well as other behaviors that feed into the concept of morality. ToM is the ability to appreciate the thoughts, feelings, and beliefs of others.


    If there is a “moral sense,” then there should be specific brain mechanisms for morality as well as brain disordered patients with impaired morality. Convergent evidence that this is the case comes from studies of functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) in normals, neurological investigations of sociopaths, and the examination of patients with focal brain lesions or with frontotemporal dementia (FTD). This neurobiological evidence points to an automatic, emotionally-mediated moral network that is centered in the ventromedial prefrontal cortex (VMPFC), particularly in the right hemisphere. Although this literature is still young, disparate, and heavily reliant on fMRI correlations, the convergence of evidence supports the presence of a neuromoral brain network. This report reviews this burgeoning literature and discusses the theoretical implications for brain-behavior relationships, and its clinical and legal implications. Although much of the presented evidence is still debated, a picture of moral neuroscience is beginning to emerge."

    What I happen to "believe" is irrelevant where this is concerned.

    As a matter of historical fact, practices like blood sport, human sacrifice, infanticide, cannibalism, and even pedophilia were not only incredibly common in many parts of the ancient world, but were often regarded as being being completely acceptable within a social context as well. A large part of the reason why all of those things went away is because of the spread of Abrahamic religions, and the moral prohibitions they enforce.

    Sooo... Yea. Whatever "moral compass" human beings might happen to possess, it's apparently pretty damn flawed, and seems to benefit from having artificial boundaries in place (assuming that classically 'nice' behavior is even your goal in the first place, of course).

  7. #177
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    moral: Concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.

    So the question is, are you personally concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior in regards to your own actions and the goodness or badness of your own character?
    I am only concerned in that my actions can cause harm to others, or can be emotionally painful to those I love. That is where morals are of concern. If there were nobody else in my life, moral behaviors would be of no consequence.

    We all are personally concerned, just as a result of being reared by another human(s), who instills in us, beliefs concerning right and wrong. After that, comes social indoctrination by church, government, school, and other social institutions, so there's really no escaping being cognizant of right and wrong, unless one is extremely antisocial or sociopathic to a serious degree.

    As for whether or not someone is a nihilist, it doesn't concern me in the least, and makes no difference.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

  8. #178
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    What I happen to "believe" is irrelevant where this is concerned.

    As a matter of historical fact, practices like blood sport, human sacrifice, infanticide, cannibalism, and even pedophilia were not only incredibly common in many parts of the ancient world, but were often regarded as being being completely acceptable within a social context as well. A large part of the reason why all of those things went away is because of the spread of Abrahamic religions, and the moral prohibitions they enforce.

    Sooo... Yea. Whatever "moral compass" human beings might happen to possess, it's apparently pretty damn flawed, and seems to benefit from having artificial boundaries in place (assuming that classically 'nice' behavior is even your goal in the first place, of course).
    What you believe is the basis and the bias of your claims.

  9. #179
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    What you believe is the basis and the bias of your claims.
    Crack open a history book every now and then. You might learn something.

  10. #180
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    What I happen to "believe" is irrelevant where this is concerned.

    As a matter of historical fact, practices like blood sport, human sacrifice, infanticide, cannibalism, and even pedophilia were not only incredibly common in many parts of the ancient world, but were often regarded as being being completely acceptable within a social context as well. A large part of the reason why all of those things went away is because of the spread of Abrahamic religions, and the moral prohibitions they enforce.

    Sooo... Yea. Whatever "moral compass" human beings might happen to possess, it's apparently pretty damn flawed, and seems to benefit from having artificial boundaries in place (assuming that classically 'nice' behavior is even your goal in the first place, of course).
    I would sort of agree. I remember reading the comments on a news article about radical Muslims (I know, I know... never read the comments!!!), and everyone was basically yelling about how we should hang them, stone them, cut their heads off, etc. I guess it never occurred to those people that they are acting exactly like the people on the other side.
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

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