View Poll Results: Do you believe in morality?

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  • Yes

    56 38.62%
  • No

    89 61.38%
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Thread: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

  1. #161
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Except not all Christians preached that such actions were wrong, or that certain things were wrong.

    Also, the beliefs are subjective. There is really no objectivity to saying "I believe that God exists". You cannot prove that God does or does not exist, so that makes such a statement subjective, making the belief itself subjective. It may be a fact that the person saying this might be actually believe that God exists, but that doesn't mean that you could even prove that the person truly believes that, let alone that the belief itself is true.

    And Christianity didn't start many of the moral viewpoints it adapted, only gathered them up from other cultures, adding to them as it grew.

    I can absolutely deny that Christianity came up with the concept of human rights. Some people, some of which were Christian, came up with what we see as important human rights, but that is not because of their Christianity. It simply evolved out of the prevailing path that people were following.
    At most, you'd could claim that a few pre-Christian pagan philosophers had vaguely similar ideas.

    Again, however, they never really found teeth until the Christian Church came along and began enforcing them as being mandatory and objective aspects of social morality, rather than optional "philosophies" a person could either take or leave on their own initiative. There is also little denying that Western society, as a whole, was better off for it.

    In any eventuality, the fact of the matter remains that concepts like "just war" and "human rights" originated in Christian cultures, and really no where else in any meaningful fashion. You can do with that knowledge what you will.

    However, the correlation would seem to be strong enough to imply something more than mere coincidence, in my opinion.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 01-16-15 at 01:28 PM.

  2. #162
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Donc View Post
    In other words your against running on ideas alone.That kinda goes against your "Libertarian"doesn't it?
    Again, with the party media campaigning for the left 24/7 - the idea that citizens should be silenced just further the rule of the oligarchy.


    I support civil liberties - which places me diametrically opposite the democrats, who are dedicated to ending all individual liberty.

    These attacks on freedom of speech are just a small part of the overall war on civil rights the left is waging.

  3. #163
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    At most, you'd could claim that a few pre-Christian pagan philosophers had vaguely similar ideas.

    Again, however, they never really found teeth until the Christian Church came along and began enforcing them as being mandatory and objective aspects of social morality, rather than optional "philosophies" a person could either take or leave on their own initiative. There is also little denying that Western society, as a whole, was better off for it.

    In any eventuality, the fact of the matter remains that concepts like "just war" and "human rights" originated in Christian cultures, and really no where else in any meaningful fashion. You can do with the knowledge what you will.

    However, the correlation would seem to be strong enough to imply something more than mere coincidence, in my opinion.
    The Christian church only gained teeth because of a very powerful person agreeing with their beliefs.

    You are basically admitting that there was evolution outside of Christianity in rights, particularly that around freedom of religion since early Christianity was all about forcing people to believe as they did, to live by their rules.

    There are plenty of aspects of Western society that could have been better off without Christian influence. None of us have any clue what would have happened to this world had Christianity not been forced on so many people. It is quite possible that people would have grown faster on their own, coming to realizations about treating their fellow humans better earlier, without Christians prohibiting some of this or condoning certain people being kept subservient, particularly giving some of those in power excuses to abuse that power under the guise of "divine right" or approval.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #164
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Because you fail to recognize that you are not trying to present a openminded thought experiment, but rather trying to get people to think like you do.

    You failed to establish any boundaries because they cannot really exist the way you wish them to when it comes to morality of actions especially when you don't provide any reasoning for the scenarios you are putting forth, despite the fact that reasoning is generally considered very important to the moral judgement of acts to most people.
    To hell with my opinion then, I must think like you.

    Thought experiments are not reality. Most are set up in a fashion to avoid endless debate over relentless distractions and goal post moving. If you dont like thought experiments then boom its gone dont get stuck on it. Move on. Thought experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I used the scenarios to convey a position, which I expanded on but you were too busy trying to bust the scenarios to bother debating any of those concepts. Look past the scenario to the big picture. The Homosapiens have historical objective evidence of knowing the basics of right and wrong as a species. We have a long history of disdaining certain activity and behaviour. On a individual level it is very subjective. In groups it is still subjective. In larger groups it is still subjective. As a whole though it is so subjective for our species that certain behaviour and actions are generally wrong. We are just animals and as such we behave as our species dictates in the grand scheme of categorical representational classification would have it. We can rationalize yes, we can choose to go against the grain, but that is individually subjective and doesnt change the anthropological view of our species (that which divides us from homo erectus etc and the difference between archaic homosapiens and modern homosapeins). We are a social species and like all social species there is a basic code the species adheres to (generally as a species). Behaviors and actions that threaten the species are frowned on and through evolutionary process kept at bay. If we start killing everyone that we see, and that were to become the norm then our species would not last very long. For humans the norm isnt to kill. How many people have you killed in your lifetime. How about the people that you know closely, how many people have they killed? If your answer is positive for either/or then you are a minority meaning that the majority of the people around you do not kill people for no reason or even for some reason. Then objectively humans think that killing is wrong.

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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The Christian church only gained teeth because of a very powerful person agreeing with their beliefs.

    You are basically admitting that there was evolution outside of Christianity in rights, particularly that around freedom of religion since early Christianity was all about forcing people to believe as they did, to live by their rules.

    There are plenty of aspects of Western society that could have been better off without Christian influence. None of us have any clue what would have happened to this world had Christianity not been forced on so many people. It is quite possible that people would have grown faster on their own, coming to realizations about treating their fellow humans better earlier, without Christians prohibiting some of this or condoning certain people being kept subservient, particularly giving some of those in power excuses to abuse that power under the guise of "divine right" or approval.


    Look. All wishful thinking and anti-Christian mental gymnastics aside, the simple fact of the matter is that the changes in question here took place in Christianity societies, and only in Christian societies, or societies closely related to them.

    The modern Western approach to morality is one, which at its core, owes its existence to the Abrahamic approach to objective social morality. That much is undeniable. I also don't think it's any coincidence that every attempt to go back to a more loosely regulated pre-Christian style of morality has resulted in the re-emergence of "socially acceptable" abuses and misbehaviors similar to those which existed in the pre-Christian world either.

    Now, again, from a true nihilistic perspective, that is more or less irrelevant, as there's really no reason to consider the Abrahamic morality in question as necessarily being "correct" in the first place. However, trying to deny the role two thousand years of strictly enforced Abrahamic values have played in shaping your own - modern Western - culture, and the sense of "right and wrong" it has engendered is simply idiotic.

    Even many secular philosophers and moralists have been forced to admit as much in recent years.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 01-16-15 at 02:49 PM.

  6. #166
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    QUOTE Uncensored

    Again, with the party media campaigning for the left 24/7 - the idea that citizens should be silenced just further the rule of the oligarchy.
    WELL!I also have disdain for this word "oligarchy" if we can agree on that we can also, perhaps, have a meeting of the minds.How would limiting contributions to,say $2000 dollars,be putting a crimp on the Koch brothers or Warren Buffets freedom of speech?


    I support civil liberties - which places me diametrically opposite the democrats, who are dedicated to ending all individual liberty
    .

    What individual liberties have the Dems yanked off your table in the past?
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

  7. #167
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Donc View Post
    WELL!I also have disdain for this word "oligarchy" if we can agree on that we can also, perhaps, have a meeting of the minds.How would limiting contributions to,say $2000 dollars,be putting a crimp on the Koch brothers or Warren Buffets freedom of speech?


    .

    What individual liberties have the Dems yanked off your table in the past?
    I realize that the party holds out the Koch brothers as an icon for party drones to focus their hate on, but I have little concern over them. Their influence isn't in the same realm as the party run NY Times, ABNBCBS, CNN, primetime television.

    Taking the little voice the people have through PAC's away ensures that the oligarchy rules uncontested.

    Oh, and as for civil liberties the dims have attacked, how about the fire chief in Atlanta, perfect example of the intolerance of the party to the expression of any view other than that assigned by party bosses.

  8. #168
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncensored2008 View Post
    I realize that the party holds out the Koch brothers as an icon for party drones to focus their hate on, but I have little concern over them. Their influence isn't in the same realm as the party run NY Times, ABNBCBS, CNN, primetime television.

    Taking the little voice the people have through PAC's away ensures that the oligarchy rules uncontested.

    Oh, and as for civil liberties the dims have attacked, how about the fire chief in Atlanta, perfect example of the intolerance of the party to the expression of any view other than that assigned by party bosses.
    So youíre dancing around the part of having a political party running on ideas instead of begging for political donations as soon as they are sworn in eh? Bytheway, didnít they have hack available for a lean when you signed up at DP.
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

  9. #169

    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Right and wrong is relative if you take it Religiously, because of what religions believe. So if that's what moral is to some people then you cannot argue or really detest other people's morality. But however, the concept of right and wrong cannot exist without morality because it deals with ones conscience, now whether that persons conscience isn't agreeable is a question for another day

  10. #170
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post


    Look. All wishful thinking and anti-Christian mental gymnastics aside, the simple fact of the matter is that the changes in question here took place in Christianity societies, and only in Christian societies, or societies closely related to them.

    The modern Western approach to morality is one, which at its core, owes its existence to the Abrahamic approach to objective social morality. That much is undeniable. I also don't think it's any coincidence that every attempt to go back to a more loosely regulated pre-Christian style of morality has resulted in the re-emergence of "socially acceptable" abuses and misbehaviors similar to those which existed in the pre-Christian world either.

    Now, again, from a true nihilistic perspective, that is more or less irrelevant, as there's really no reason to consider the Abrahamic morality in question as necessarily being "correct" in the first place. However, trying to deny the role two thousand years of strictly enforced Abrahamic values have played in shaping your own - modern Western - culture, and the sense of "right and wrong" it has engendered is simply idiotic.

    Even many secular philosophers and moralists have been forced to admit as much in recent years.
    Your rant is completely deniable because it ignores other societies that had many of the same principles and it assumes that those principles that Christianity brought are all desirable morally and beneficial to people or that they were developed or supported by Christianity from its beginning.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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