View Poll Results: Do you believe in morality?

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Thread: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

  1. #111
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    What if the 'kingdom of god' turns out to be a box in a small bit of ground and no thing more? It seems a perversion of greed to claim that behaving a certain way and not having earthy delights will have you slathered in 'heavenly' ones where streets are paved with gold and there is some 'higher' reward...

    Sounds like a bribe to me...

    I've met good folks who are not christian or accepted in quite a few houses of Gawd.... mostly gay folks... but they have a rather well developed sense of right and wrong.

    Courts show routinely people who are not christian show a sense of right and wrong by their actions after a crime.

    (but it also shows many so-called Christians commit the same crimes so go figure)
    It's a guide to salvation and life in general. Each of those sins have been demonstrated to cause chaos and mayhem in people's lives. No one can completely fulfill all the wishes/commandment of God but, trying to eliminate as many sins as possible can lead to a betterment of your life and those around you.
    32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
    Matt. 10:32-33

  2. #112
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Are you asking what most of them believe...? Because no, that's certainly not it.

    No matter how many times the frightened absolutists scream that everyone else is a sociopath, it still isn't going to make it true. Sorry, dude. We're just as human, and just as likely to be honest and compassionate people as everyone else. I do apologise -- I know how hard it makes it for you to think in black and white.

    Hell, if anything, without having our morality reduced to some kind of punisher god or egotistical need to believe our judgmentals are absolute for our own sense of security, relativists and nihilists tend to be a lot more concerned with morality in my experience, especially their own.

    But I will say I am quite openly anti-"law and order" absolutism. People who base their morality and compassion on nothing but law are just sheep, willing to sacrifice the well-being of others for simple obedience and a personal sense of superiority. I openly support defiance of cruel and anti-human dignity laws, and civil disobediance as a valid path to take towards a more humane society.
    I'm just saying it's the most logical thing.... is to do what you want, while promoting a moral code outwardly agreed on others.

    if its what you want to follow or be compassionate or whatever, that's great, that's what you want... regardless you live by a different standard by design.

  3. #113
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    I'm just saying it's the most logical thing.... is to do what you want, while promoting a moral code outwardly agreed on others.

    if its what you want to follow or be compassionate or whatever, that's great, that's what you want... regardless you live by a different standard by design.
    Not really. At least not if you're including human psychology in the mix, which is sort of the whole point. It's beneficial to everyone, including the individual for experiences and actions to be positive. Our ethics are, or should be, driven by our cooperative nature.

    Incidentally, this is why absolutism goes wrong so often. It denies our nature in favor of some sort of parental punisher or validation by the universe itself, freezing people in toddler-level morality of reward and punishment, and little else.

    How do I "live by a different standard," exactly? It's what I do or it isn't, isn't it? That sentence makes zero sense.

  4. #114
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    That would depend on who is in the McDonnalds.
    Are there people that frequent McDonalds that you would kill, just because they are there?

  5. #115
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Donc View Post
    How a link to a web page showing that “The median net worth of a member of Congress was $1,029,505 in 2013 “WHICH INCLUDES DEMS AS WELL A REPS is hardly proof of anything but they didn’t take a vow of poverty.
    Peruse the incomes of the legislators and you find that all of them are filthy rich - and that over all, democrats have about 30% greater wealth than Republican in the two houses.

    Now see, I thought for sure some clever communist would do the math and come back with "HEY, the Republicans in congress have more money," ignoring the Senate side that pushes the dims so far ahead.

    But I guess "clever" and "democrat" just don't go together. :dunno:

  6. #116
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Not really. At least not if you're including human psychology in the mix, which is sort of the whole point. It's beneficial to everyone, including the individual for experiences and actions to be positive. Our ethics are, or should be, driven by our cooperative nature.

    Incidentally, this is why absolutism goes wrong so often. It denies our nature in favor of some sort of parental punisher or validation by the universe itself, freezing people in toddler-level morality of reward and punishment, and little else.

    How do I "live by a different standard," exactly? It's what I do or it isn't, isn't it? That sentence makes zero sense.
    If nihilism is true, then human psychology, physiology, and even biology are ultimately irrelevant. They are all simply incidental accidents, and can therefore be ignored.

    Logically speaking, Celt's absolutely right. All that would really matter in a nihilistic framework is taking what you could for yourself, when feasible to do so.

    i.e. Objectivism, with regard for the "common good" only where it intersects with one's own rational self-interest.

    Unfortunately, yes. That does inevitably tend to result in quite a bit of self-serving "dick bag" behavior for most people.

    Not everyone gets off on gooey altruistic "feelings" for their own sake in the same way you do, you know. Some of us require our rewards to be a bit more tangible.

    For that exact reason, in lieu of any set moral code compelling altruistic behavior, not everyone's going to "play nice" just 'cuz. Frankly, they'd be fools to do so anyway, as there's not a terrible amount of benefit to it.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 01-15-15 at 01:23 PM.

  7. #117
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    If nihilism is true, then human psychology, physiology, and even biology are ultimately irrelevant. They are all simply incidental accidents, and can therefore be ignored.

    Logically speaking, Celt's absolutely right. All that would really matter in a nihilistic framework is taking what you could for yourself, when feasible to do so.

    i.e. Objectivism, with interest in the "common good" only where it intersects with one's own rational self-interest.

    Unfortunately, yes. That does inevitably tend to result in quite a bit of self-serving "dick bag" behavior for most people.

    Not everyone gets off on gooey altruistic "feelings" for their own sake in the same way you do, you know. Some of us require our rewards to be a bit more tangible.

    For that exact reason, in lieu of any set moral code compelling altruistic behavior, not everyone's going to "play nice" just 'cuz. Frankly, they'd be fools to do so anyway, as there's not a terrible amount of benefit to it.
    Well, to the universe, sure. But not to us. It doesn't matter to us, living our lives here, with our minds being wired how they are, what's true of the universe as a whole. It doesn't change our experiences, or our needs as social creatures.

    Recognizing that our concerns probably aren't the central focus of the entire universe doesn't turn people into "dick bags" unless you're already a sociopath to begin with, or a toddler. Nearly all secular people are relativists or nihilists to some degree, whether they know it or not, and yet secular-dominant places are the best on earth.

    But even for those with rather muted senses of empathy, there are still quite obvious rewards: being successful in society, which is hard when you're a dickbag unless you simultaniously have a very high IQ. And those kinds of people aren't gullible enough to buy into the "punisher" narrative to begin with, so there's probably no convincing them anyway.

  8. #118
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Well, to the universe, sure. But not to us. It doesn't matter to us, living our lives here, with our minds being wired how they are, what's true of the universe as a whole. It doesn't change our experiences, or our needs as social creatures.
    "Wiring" can be changed. Frankly, within a nihilistic framework, it probably should be changed.

    Honestly, if nihilism truly is the way of the world, then our empathy is ultimately more of a hindrance than a benefit. We should all consider ourselves fortunate to be born as socially-functional sociopaths.

    I mean... Just think of how many problems could be solved that way!

    Troubled by an endemic underclass of citizens draining public resources? Well, why not simply purge them?

    Hell! Do the environment a favor and grind them up into food and commercial products for everyone else while you're at it!

    The same goes for the elderly, the sick, and most others. They aren't really a benefit to you, me, or society in general, after all.

    Recognizing that our concerns probably aren't the central focus of the entire universe doesn't turn people into "dick bags" unless you're already a sociopath to begin with, or a toddler. Nearly all secular people are relativists or nihilists to some degree, whether they know it or not, and yet secular-dominant places are the best on earth.
    That has little to do with the people actually living there, however, or any supposedly "superior" sense of morality found therein.

    To the contrary, the modern West is more livable because it is more advanced, and therefore has more resources to spread around. It simply happens to be the case that fat, happy, and well entertained human beings are less likely to resort to violence or predatory behavior than those who live in want.

    Frankly, even then, this is hardly absolute. I'd actually argue that the average well-to-do person living in today's "Liberated" society is probably considerably more inter-personally unpleasant, self-serving, and "amoral" than those living a few generations ago. It simply matters less.

    But even for those with rather muted senses of empathy, there are still quite obvious rewards: being successful in society, which is hard when you're a dickbag unless you simultaniously have a very high IQ.
    That depends on how you define "dick bag behavior" in the first place. Obviously, running around insulting everyone you see would be counter-productive.

    However, actions like snubbing the homeless, telling a person in need to "**** off," or deliberately going out of one's way to work a social system in such a way as to gain status and power at someone else's expense not only tend to be "socially acceptable," but are often effective means of getting ahead in life.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 01-15-15 at 01:52 PM.

  9. #119
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    "Wiring" can be changed. Frankly, within a nihilistic framework, it probably should be changed.

    Honestly, if nihilism truly is the way of the world, then our empathy is ultimately more of a hindrance than a benefit. We should all consider ourselves fortunate to be born as socially-functional sociopaths.

    I mean... Just think of how many problems could be solved that way!

    Troubled by an endemic underclass of citizens draining public resources? Well, why not simply purge them?

    Hell! Do the environment a favor and grind them up into food and commercial products for everyone else while you're at it!

    The same goes for the elderly, the sick, and most others. They aren't really a benefit to you, me, or society in general, after all.

    That has little to do with the people actually living there, however, or any supposedly "superior" sense of morality found therein.

    To the contrary, the modern West is more livable because it is more advanced, and therefore has more resources to spread around. It simply happens to be the case that fat, happy, and well entertained human beings are less likely to resort to violence or predatory behavior than those who live in want.

    Frankly, even then, this is hardly absolute. I'd actually argue that the average well-to-do person living in today's "Liberated" society is probably considerably more inter-personally unpleasant, self-serving, and "amoral" than those living a few generations ago. It simply matters less.

    That depends on how you define "dick bag behavior" in the first place. Obviously, running around insulting everyone you see would be counter-productive.

    However, snubbing the homeless, telling a person in need to "**** off," or deliberately going out of one's way to work a social system in such a way as to get ahead at someone else's expense not only tends to be "socially acceptable," but are often effective means of getting ahead in life.
    That makes less than zero sense. Why is it "preferable" to choose sociopathy when the universe itself has no position? If the universe has no position, there is no "preferable" path in the universe's eyes. It doesn't care.

    What cares is the individual, and the hive mind. What it cares about is not objectively "true," but that changes nothing whatsoever about their experience, and interactions with one another.

    And no, that wiring can't be changed. People can bury it, and sometimes do (usually after abuse), but it invariably results in psychological problems, and sometimes even health problems. Babies will simply die without social stimulus.

    I guess if you have faulty wiring, that kind of makes sense if I turn upside down a bit? But I find kindness of benefit to all, personally. Especially to the least of us. Lots of people do.

    So you just contradicted your own argument in a single sentence, and to do so, you used the example of the culture of the straggling problem child of the developed world... which also happens to be the most absolutist? Geez, you do a better job taking yourself apart than I ever could.

    Since I can't seem to get you to understand the concept of cosmic neutrality, I have a feeling this is yet another logic wormhole with Gath.

  10. #120
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    Re: Do you have a personal concept of right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    That makes less than zero sense. Why is it "preferable" to choose sociopathy when the universe itself has no position? If the universe has no position, there is no "preferable" path in the universe's eyes. It doesn't care.
    It is "preferable" from the perspective of tangible utilitarian benefit. Again, in a world devoid of empathy, we would be capable of addressing quite a few issues which our present moral qualms prevent us from doing so today.

    And no, that wiring can't be changed.
    Genetic Engineering



    These kinds of questions are going to be a real issue sooner than you might think.

    Again, this begs the question: From a "nihilistic" standpoint, if one could build a race of Sociopathic Neitzschean supermen, what would necessarily be "wrong" with doing so?

    I guess if you have faulty wiring, that kind of makes sense? But I find kindness of benefit to all, personally. Especially to the least of us. Lots of people do.
    Okay. That's nice, and all. However, there's really no reason why anyone should feel an obligation to do so from a nihilistic standpoint. That's the point you seem to be missing.

    You're basically relying on the "honor system" here. lol

    So you just contradicted your own argument in a single sentence, and to do so used the example of the culture of the straggling problem child of the developed world... which also happens to be the most absolutist? Geez, you do a better job taking yourself apart than I ever could.
    What are you talking about?
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 01-15-15 at 02:04 PM.

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