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Is Racial Discrimination Sometimes Justified?

Is racial discrimination sometimes justified?

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 16.7%

  • No

    Votes: 15 83.3%
  • Total voters
    18
MildSteel said:
Let's look at it like this. Suppose a person reads statistics that state that blacks, relative to their numbers, commit a disproportionate amount of crime. He then goes out on the street and is robbed and beaten by a group of black males. Would he not be justified in practicing some sort of discrimination, at least in his mind, in the future?
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No. Because the percentage of black males who rob and beat people is still ridiculously low. It would be unjust for him to discriminate against black people as a whole due to that.
 
cpwill said:
I would probably either ask the person sitting next to me, or, if we weren't sitting in class, who seemed most open and available. The last decision might play into stereotypes, but I wouldn't be able to observe it and certainly wouldn't be able to decide to perform the act of discrimination because of it.
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Ok. It's just a hypothetical. You asked for one, I attempted to supply one.

cpwill said:
Since we are looking at the question of justification, however, the two are unlike. Deliberate discrimination is the result of a decision-making process that can be said to be just or unjust.

Unconscious discrimination (we tend to think that good-looking people are smarter) is not the result of a decision-making process that can be said to be just or unjust.

This is particularly true if you are attempting to bring collected ethnic statistics (such as IQ scores) to bear.
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I disagree with you in the strongest terms. To support that, we need only to note the fact that many times racists don't feel that they are discriminating at all.
 
Anagram said:
No. Because the percentage of black males who rob and beat people is still ridiculously low. It would be unjust for him to discriminate against black people as a whole due to that.
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So you are saying that it would be unjust for him to give pause if he sees a group of black males, based on the fact that they are black, even though he has direct experience of being treated cruelly by such a group? How will he be able to actually do this in his mind, because the mind relies heavily on past experience to make judgements about the present.
 
MildSteel said:
I disagree with you in the strongest terms. To support that, we need only to note the fact that many times racists don't feel that they are discriminating at all.
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Ahhhhhh. That's what I was wondering when I asked what your game was. You could have simply stated this at the beginning of the thread, and saved some of us some time. I didn't figure it was really a question on your part, but just a leading of participants down the path of your choice.
 
lizzie said:
Ahhhhhh. That's what I was wondering when I asked what your game was. You could have simply stated this at the beginning of the thread, and saved some of us some time. I didn't figure it was really a question on your part, but just a leading of participants down the path of your choice.
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I don't understand your point here at all. I have merely pointed out that discrimination does not have to be deliberate to be unjust. What in the world are you talking about?
 
MildSteel said:
So you are saying that it would be unjust for him to give pause if he sees a group of black males, based on the fact that they are black, even though he has direct experience of being treated cruelly by such a group? How will he be able to actually do this in his mind, because the mind relies heavily on past experience to make judgements about the present.
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It would be, yes. It could be a group of black seventy year-olds coming out of a church. Now if you want to narrow it down to a group of young tattooed black males in thug-like clothing walking toward you after dark then that probably would be justified. But at that point you aren't really discriminating on skin color, and you'd probably be apt to give pause whether they are black, white, hispanic, anything else.
 
I think that is a personal space issue with criminal behavior. The less mental space you feel, the more likely to erupt in violence. For instance, if blacks are all moved into one ghetto and discriminated against, they will lose mental space, they will not give themselves any person space to live, and develop angry feelings. This is especially true as they also discriminate against each other after so many years. If you think about your own feelings of hostility, you can see they are from having your inner space stolen by assholes and disrespected.
 
MildSteel said:
Ok. It's just a hypothetical. You asked for one, I attempted to supply one.
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:shrug: I just think that you are trying to shove a square peg in a round hole here. Is there something in particular you are trying to drive at?

I disagree with you in the strongest terms. To support that, we need only to note the fact that many times racists don't feel that they are discriminating at all.
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No - they feel that their discrimination is justified. Unconscious discrimination (for example, I am more likely to smile at women than men, but you don't realize it until afterwards) that is not the result of a decision-making process ("do I pick up this guy for a fare or not?" "Do I seek this guy's help, or that guy's help?") cannot be said to be justified or unjustified, because there is no decision made to take one action or another.

Someone who is discriminating because they are (for example) a sexist would say something like : "Of course I hired Steve for the job over Susan. Steven needs to provide, but Susan is married now - as a woman it's time she started working in the home."

The italicized is the justification that - he feels - is valid. Because women have the ability/responsibility to work in the home, they can be discriminated against in hiring decisions out of the home. That is a discriminatory decision-making process whose justification (or not) can be discussed. Implicit racism in rapid, unconscious choice-making not so much.
 
Anagram said:
It would be, yes. It could be a group of black seventy year-olds coming out of a church. Now if you want to narrow it down to a group of young tattooed black males in thug-like clothing walking toward you after dark then that probably would be justified. But at that point you aren't really discriminating on skin color, and you'd probably be apt to give pause whether they are black, white, hispanic, anything else.
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IF you say it is indeed unjust, I would put forward that not to do so is somewhat unnatural or perhaps unusual would be a better term.
 
cpwill said:
I just think that you are trying to shove a square peg in a round hole here. Is there something in particular you are trying to drive at?
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OK. I'm done with that example. You asked for one, I attempted to give one.


cpwill said:
No - they feel that their discrimination is justified.
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Sometimes they do. Some do not feel that they are discriminating at all. That is a fact.
 
michijo said:
I think that is a personal space issue with criminal behavior. The less mental space you feel, the more likely to erupt in violence. For instance, if blacks are all moved into one ghetto and discriminated against, they will lose mental space, they will not give themselves any person space to live, and develop angry feelings. This is especially true as they also discriminate against each other after so many years. If you think about your own feelings of hostility, you can see they are from having your inner space stolen by assholes and disrespected.
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I feel you big time. Some people seem to have no problem whatsoever with constantly getting into other people's business.
 
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MildSteel said:
Let's look at an earlier example. Suppose that a person sees statistics that show blacks, relative to their numbers, are disproportionately involved in crime. Suppose that person is walking down the street and robbed by a group of black men. Would not that person be justified in avoiding groups of black men in the future? Isn't that discrimination that has some justification?
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No that person would not be justified as they are making vast generalizations against an entire race of people.

Let me give you an example from my own life. When I was quite young, my brother and I got into an argument of sorts with a group of white kids from across the street who we were usually on good terms with. The argument ended with my brother and me being chased down several blocks while the white kids threw rocks at us and called us the N-word. By the logic of your above post, I would be completely justified in avoiding all white people. However, in reality I am not as I would be stereotyping, assuming that all white people were as bad as the ones I interacted with.
 
MildSteel said:
OK. I'm done with that example. You asked for one, I attempted to give one.
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:shrug: 'fair enough.


Sometimes they do. Some do not feel that they are discriminating at all. That is a fact.
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This is where I think you are attempting to conflate unlike things with regards to justification. Implicit, unconscious discrimination cannot be said to be either "justified" or "unjustified" - it simply is part of psychology. It is.

Decisions are conscious choices to discriminate that can be justified or unjustified, based off of the possible loss v the good sought.


We can say, for example, "The decision to continue affirmative action at University X is / is not justified due to the following reasons", but we wouldn't say "the decision that taller men are more appealing to women is / is not justified" because it's not a decision - it just is. It might be unfair to those of us who are altitudinally challenged, but that does not speak to it's being justified or not.
 
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Mr. Invisible said:
No that person would not be justified as they are making vast generalizations against an entire race of people.

Let me give you an example from my own life. When I was quite young, my brother and I got into an argument of sorts with a group of white kids from across the street who we were usually on good terms with. The argument ended with my brother and me being chased down several blocks while the white kids threw rocks at us and called us the N-word. By the logic of your above post, I would be completely justified in avoiding all white people. However, in reality I am not as I would be stereotyping, assuming that all white people were as bad as the ones I interacted with.
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My experience is that as I boy, I avoided riding my bike through white neighborhoods.
 
MildSteel said:
My experience is that as I boy, I avoided riding my bike through white neighborhoods.
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We all lived in the same neighborhood, same town, went to the same schools.
 
cpwill said:
This is where I think you are attempting to conflate unlike things with regards to justification. Implicit, unconscious discrimination cannot be said to be either "justified" or "unjustified" - it simply is part of psychology.
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And where I think you are wrong is that a person could be consciously engaged in an act where they are deliberately engaging in discriminating activity, and not think that they are actually doing so. In that case, it is not deliberate.
 
MildSteel said:
Ok. Sorry to bother you.
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You are not bothering me. I do not give a whit as to a persons color, orientation, religion or lack of religion.
The questions were reasonable. Trying to get a handle on what you are looking for?
 
MildSteel said:
IF you say it is indeed unjust, I would put forward that not to do so is somewhat unnatural or perhaps unusual would be a better term.
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It probably is natural. It's still unjust. And doing it doesn't necessarily make you a bad person, depending on how far you let it take you, but it's not a justified natural response.

I see it in the same vein as people who refuse to do business with an entire chain of restaurants after a single bad experience with service at one of them. Not really justified at all, yet I know several people who do so.
 
MildSteel said:
And where I think you are wrong is that a person could be consciously engaged in an act where they are deliberately engaging in discriminating activity, and not think that they are actually doing so. In that case, it is not deliberate.
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If they are discriminating deliberately, then it can't be wholly unconscious. You are self contradicting.
 
What if you are a Human Resource Director for a highly technical, scientific firm.
My guess is most ehtnic backrounds would be Oriental, then white, and then
black. Should that Human Resource Director be charged with discrimination. Of
course, it is the job of a Human Resource Director to discriminate.
 
Anagram said:
It probably is natural. It's still unjust. And doing it doesn't necessarily make you a bad person, depending on how far you let it take you, but it's not a justified natural response.
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Perhaps it's not justified. But on the other hand, intuitively I would think that there must be some justification to it, if it is indeed natural. But again, that's just an intuitive response.

Anagram said:
I see it in the same vein as people who refuse to do business with an entire chain of restaurants after a single bad experience with service at one of them. Not really justified at all, yet I know several people who do so.
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I am susceptible to doing that.
 
cpwill said:
If they are discriminating deliberately, then it can't be wholly unconscious. You are self contradicting.
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Perhaps I have not made myself clear. The person can be deliberately engaged in an act, that is in fact discriminatory, and not be aware of the fact that the activity that they are deliberately engaged in, is in fact discriminatory.

I hope I didn't make it worse. lol
 
MildSteel said:
It is not overly broad because racial discrimination is to discriminate based on race. It is not illegal for the person to think, there is a group of black men, they may rob me, therefore I will avoid them.
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We disagree on how you are using the term.
 
MildSteel said:
Perhaps I have not made myself clear. The person can be deliberately engaged in an act, that is in fact discriminatory, and not be aware of the fact that the activity that they are deliberately engaged in, is in fact discriminatory.

I hope I didn't make it worse. lol
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Hm. Trying to be precise then:

If they are deliberately engaged in discrimination, then that is an act that can be said to be justified or not as discrimination.

If they are engaged in an act in which unconscious discrimination plays a role, then not so much.
 
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