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Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/rational?

Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/rational?

  • Total voters
    75
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

Deuce said:
You don't see any reason, but people did. 50 years ago, there were a ton of people making religious arguments against same-sex marriage, and there were plenty of churches that would refuse to perform the ceremony.
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Sorry.

Let me re-phrase that…

“I am personally not aware of any church denying to marry interracial, black, previously divorced couples, etc…these days.”

Better?

Deuce said:
They had their own justification in scriptures, just like you do. Me, I've never seen evidence that Jesus Christ ever said one word condemning homosexuality.
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You’ve never seen any evidence that Christ endorsed homosexuality either. In fact, the only time you are aware that Christ ever spoke about marriage was in Matthew 19.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

The Baron said:
Sorry.

Let me re-phrase that…

“I am personally not aware of any church denying to marry interracial, black, previously divorced couples, etc…these days.”

Better?



You’ve never seen any evidence that Christ endorsed homosexuality either. In fact, the only time you are aware that Christ ever spoke about marriage was in Matthew 19.
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So you have no proof that Jesus endorsed interracial marriage either, but they are ok in your mind. Or does no mention of something by Jesus only matter if it is those icky gays?
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

The Baron said:
Until this generation, yes, it most certainly has.



Plan B is an aborticacient. I’ll let you figure it out by yourself.



Yea, if you’re Amish or Mennonite.
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Every bit of this is wrong. Several cultures in history allowed same sex marriages.

Plan b is mainly to prevent pregnancy. And there are religious exemptions for churches, just not religious affiliations.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

roguenuke said:
Then you are ill informed or in denial. Refusals to perform interracial marriages pop up in the news every couple of years. There was one within the last two years where a black couple was denied a marriage in the church.
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Sorry. I meant I was unaware of anyone denying to perform interracial, black, race-related marriage these days. Of course this was a problem in the past that went all the way to the Supreme Court in Loving vs. Virginia.

roguenuke said:
The Catholic Church will only perform a marriage for a divorced catholic if they had the first marriage officially annulled by the Catholic Church.
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Which is to say that the Catholic Church will marry previously divorced people.

roguenuke said:
Many religions refuse to wed interfaith couples.
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Possibly. I know that Bible teaches against it (2 Corinthians 6:14). But that is something quite different from “refusing” to marry people of different faiths and I’ve never heard of anyone refusing to do it. Regardless, interfaith is hardly as controversial as homosexual marriage.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

The Baron said:
Sorry. I meant I was unaware of anyone denying to perform interracial, black, race-related marriage these days. Of course this was a problem in the past that went all the way to the Supreme Court in Loving vs. Virginia.



Which is to say that the Catholic Church will marry previously divorced people.



Possibly. I know that Bible teaches against it (2 Corinthians 6:14). But that is something quite different from “refusing” to marry people of different faiths and I’ve never heard of anyone refusing to do it. Regardless, interfaith is hardly as controversial as homosexual marriage.
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The Armenian church refuses inter faith weddings. Many rabbis refuse to do interfaith weddings too.

The point is that churches are not forced to have a wedding for any one they choose. They can discriminate based on anything they so choose.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

wolfsgirl said:
So you have no proof that Jesus endorsed interracial marriage either, but they are ok in your mind. Or does no mention of something by Jesus only matter if it is those icky gays?
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I know of nothing that forbids interracial marriage, whereas, the Bible strictly forbids homosexual behavior so you can take it up with the author if you like.

wolfsgirl said:
The Armenian church refuses inter faith weddings. Many rabbis refuse to do interfaith weddings too.
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Oy vey!

wolfsgirl said:
The point is that churches are not forced to have a wedding for any one they choose. They can discriminate based on anything they so choose.
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I’ve not argued that. I am not arguing the present at all. I am saying that things are changing and in my opinion it will simply be a matter of time when churches will be forced to perform homosexual marriages or lose their tax exempt status.

I just Googled “perform gay marriage or lose tax exempt status” and got 1,680,000 hits so apparently I’m not the only one pondering this notion.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

The Baron said:
I know of nothing that forbids interracial marriage, whereas, the Bible strictly forbids homosexual behavior so you can take it up with the author if you like.



Oy vey!



I’ve not argued that. I am not arguing the present at all. I am saying that things are changing and in my opinion it will simply be a matter of time when churches will be forced to perform homosexual marriages or lose their tax exempt status.

I just Googled “perform gay marriage or lose tax exempt status” and got 1,680,000 hits so apparently I’m not the only one pondering this notion.
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I'm sure there are plenty of chicken littles crying "the sky is falling", but it's not. If a church can legally turn away people based on race or religion which are covered in the civil rights act, then why would they be forced to marry a homosexual couple that are not even federally protected?
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

roguenuke said:
Ever try to enter a Mormon temple and you aren't a Mormon? Churches can refuse to make anyone a member of their clergy. Based on anything, race, sex, disability, sexuality, whatever. Do you think the Westboro baptist lye anyone in their church they haven't vetted? Many churches have refused to marry people based on race and religion.
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I've actually been in many Mormon temples and I have always been well received even though I believe their founder is a false profit. In fact, I've never been turned away at the door of any religious building.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

ksu_aviator said:
I've actually been in many Mormon temples and I have always been well received even though I believe their founder is a false profit. In fact, I've never been turned away at the door of any religious building.
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Most people cannot just simply walk through the doors of a Mormon temple, most are not open to the public.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

roguenuke said:
Most people cannot just simply walk through the doors of a Mormon temple, most are not open to the public.
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Yes they are. In fact, they go around door to door in short sleeve white shirts and cheap ties begging people to walk through the doors.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

ksu_aviator said:
I've actually been in many Mormon temples and I have always been well received even though I believe their founder is a false profit. In fact, I've never been turned away at the door of any religious building.
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Don't confuse our Temples with our meetinghouses. The services at the latter are indeed open to the public, and everyone is welcome. Once a Temple is dedicated, only members in good standing are allowed inside; though, as a matter of practice, we usually have a new Temple open to public visitors in the brief time after construction is completed, before it is dedicated.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

ksu_aviator said:
Yes they are. In fact, they go around door to door in short sleeve white shirts and cheap ties begging people to walk through the doors.
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Not the same places. Temples are different than where their normal, open to the public services are held. It's sort of like Scientology in that regard, the deeper you invest, the further in you get.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

The Baron said:
Sorry. I meant I was unaware of anyone denying to perform interracial, black, race-related marriage these days. Of course this was a problem in the past that went all the way to the Supreme Court in Loving vs. Virginia.



Which is to say that the Catholic Church will marry previously divorced people.



Possibly. I know that Bible teaches against it (2 Corinthians 6:14). But that is something quite different from “refusing” to marry people of different faiths and I’ve never heard of anyone refusing to do it. Regardless, interfaith is hardly as controversial as homosexual marriage.
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Churches refuse to wed people of faiths not belonging to that church all the time. Heck that's one of the reasons my mother got married in a Methodist rather than Catholic Church, because my father is Methodist, not catholic.

Interfaith is just ignored because it is legal. If same sex couples were getting legally married despite many not approving of such couples for decades, even centuries, no one would be even suggesting that churches would be forced to marry them.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

roguenuke said:
Churches refuse to wed people of faiths not belonging to that church all the time. Heck that's one of the reasons my mother got married in a Methodist rather than Catholic Church, because my father is Methodist, not catholic. Interfaith is just ignored because it is legal.
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Undoubtedly

roguenuke said:
If same sex couples were getting legally married despite many not approving of such couples for decades, even centuries, no one would be even suggesting that churches would be forced to marry them.
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And yet people are doing that very thing. As I told wolfsgirl, I just Googled “perform gay marriage or lose tax exempt status” and got 1,680,000 hits so apparently I’m not the only one pondering this notion. In my opinion, it’s just a matter of time.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

wolfsgirl said:
I'm sure there are plenty of chicken littles crying "the sky is falling", but it's not. If a church can legally turn away people based on race or religion which are covered in the civil rights act, then why would they be forced to marry a homosexual couple that are not even federally protected?
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Perhaps if you had bothered to Google the same thing you would have noticed that there are some very serious suggestions about doing exactly what I've described and not all of those are crying "the sky is falling".
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

The Baron said:
Undoubtedly

And yet people are doing that very thing. As I told wolfsgirl, I just Googled “perform gay marriage or lose tax exempt status” and got 1,680,000 hits so apparently I’m not the only one pondering this notion. In my opinion, it’s just a matter of time.
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Not in any significant amount. You have a very very small, insignificant number of people making any sort of suggestion of removing tax exempt status from churches for not performing weddings for everyone, regardless of religious beliefs. The results number means absolutely zilch since it likely is mostly from people like you talking about fears of such a thing happening.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

The Baron said:
Perhaps if you had bothered to Google the same thing you would have noticed that there are some very serious suggestions about doing exactly what I've described and not all of those are crying "the sky is falling".
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Funny, I didn't get any "serious suggestions", but rather a bunch of blogs, message boards, or question/answer sites with people speculating about it.

https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=perform+gay+marriage+or+lose+tax+exempt+status&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

In fact, the only thing I can find that suggests this actually is people saying that churches should lose tax exempt status period. That contention is much more popular than churches losing tax exempt status specifically just for not performing gay marriages and only that.

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/should-churches-synagogues-and-other-religious-organizations-lose-their-tax-exempt-status-if-they-d/question-4592055/

This poll shows exactly what I'm talking about with the comments.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

The Baron said:
Perhaps if you had bothered to Google the same thing you would have noticed that there are some very serious suggestions about doing exactly what I've described and not all of those are crying "the sky is falling".
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Which person in a position to ACTUALLY make this happen has proposed it?
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

roguenuke said:
Not in any significant amount. You have a very very small, insignificant number of people making any sort of suggestion of removing tax exempt status from churches for not performing weddings for everyone, regardless of religious beliefs. The results number means absolutely zilch since it likely is mostly from people like you talking about fears of such a thing happening.
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Well said.

Anecdotally, when one or two leftists on leftist orientated forum that I was active on advocated officially coercing unwilling curches to perform gay marriages, they were quickly rejected by their fellow leftists. In the end, there is simply no mechanism to do so constitutionally- and as you mentioned, there is very little support for even making an attempt.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

Cryptic said:
Well said.

Anecdotally, when one or two leftists on leftist orientated forum that I was active on advocated officially coercing unwilling curches to perform gay marriages, they were quickly rejected by their fellow leftists. In the end, there is simply no mechanism to do so constitutionally- and as you mentioned, there is very little support for even making an attempt.
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Exactly. Even here when it comes up (and I've seen it once or twice from one or two posters in the 7 years I've been here), either their suggestion is dismissed by most, those for and against same sex marriage, or the person is advocating for that removal not really because they won't perform ceremonies for gays but rather because they don't believe churches should be tax exempt at all to begin with.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

roguenuke said:
Funny, I didn't get any "serious suggestions", but rather a bunch of blogs, message boards, or question/answer sites with people speculating about it.
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Really? Over a million-and-a-half hits and you found nothing?

roguenuke said:
In fact, the only thing I can find that suggests this actually is people saying that churches should lose tax exempt status period. That contention is much more popular than churches losing tax exempt status specifically just for not performing gay marriages and only that.
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Exactly, which is why I suspect that the one will be used to justify the other.

roguenuke said:
Not in any significant amount. You have a very very small, insignificant number of people making any sort of suggestion of removing tax exempt status from churches for not performing weddings for everyone, regardless of religious beliefs. The results number means absolutely zilch since it likely is mostly from people like you talking about fears of such a thing happening.
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My only point is that people are, in fact, talking about it which you admit yourself. This is how these things start. “Obamacare” didn’t “just happen”. People have been talking about socialized medicine in the US for years now. “Single-payer” won’t just happen in the US but both Obama and Reid have stated that single payer is the goal and people are talking about it. Likewise, I don’t believe that forcing churches to marry homosexual couples will “just happen” but people are already talking about it. I suspect it is simply a matter of time.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

The Baron said:
Really? Over a million-and-a-half hits and you found nothing?

Exactly, which is why I suspect that the one will be used to justify the other.

My only point is that people are, in fact, talking about it which you admit yourself. This is how these things start. “Obamacare” didn’t “just happen”. People have been talking about socialized medicine in the US for years now. “Single-payer” won’t just happen in the US but both Obama and Reid have stated that single payer is the goal and people are talking about it. Likewise, I don’t believe that forcing churches to marry homosexual couples will “just happen” but people are already talking about it. I suspect it is simply a matter of time.
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No, one would not be logically used to justify the other, particularly since there is no basis for doing so.

And your contention was that there was a serious effort being made to remove tax exemption status for churches specifically because they refused to marry gays. When all but an extremists few are mainly pushing to remove tax exempt status from all churches, even those that do perform weddings for same sex couples and everyone else.

Obamacare is much closer to what Republicans have been talking about for many, many decades than single payer healthcare. Republicans are the ones who came up with the idea that everyone should be mandated to purchase health insurance or face tax penalties for it, not those who want UHC, which is a very different system.

And you are wrong that people, as in a significant portion of people, will try to force churches to marry anyone they don't want to, let alone gays, just as you were wrong that churches don't already refuse to marry couples for many different reasons, even when it is a class protected from discrimination in other public interactions such as hiring and doing business with the public, including race, religion, age, disability (I'm sure there are churches that won't perform weddings for people who can't have children), previous marital status, and many other reasons.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

The Baron said:
See my post no. 296.
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YOU made the claim, now back it up. I'm not going to do your research for you.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

roguenuke said:
No, one would not be logically used to justify the other, particularly since there is no basis for doing so.
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I’m simply illustrating a point.

roguenuke said:
And your contention was that there was a serious effort being made to remove tax exemption status for churches specifically because they refused to marry gays. When all but an extremists few are mainly pushing to remove tax exempt status from all churches, even those that do perform weddings for same sex couples and everyone else.
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I never said that was a “serious effort”. All I said was that “[t]here is already talk about removing church's tax exempt status. I suspect that some church's will ‘knuckle-under’ to keep thier tax exempt status by agreeing to marrying homosexual couples.”

That was my original comment and I still believe as much.

roguenuke said:
Obamacare is much closer to what Republicans have been talking about for many, many decades...
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And yet not one Republican voted for it.

Pathetic.

I do hope you can do better than this.

roguenuke said:
And you are wrong that people, as in a significant portion of people, will try to force churches to marry anyone they don't want to...
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I didn’t say anything about a “significant portion of people” and don’t believe that it will require that. Obamacare passed with a majority of Americans against it.

roguenuke said:
...let alone gays, just as you were wrong that churches don't already refuse to marry couples for many different reasons...
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I never stated that.

roguenuke said:
...even when it is a class protected from discrimination in other public interactions such as hiring and doing business with the public, including race, religion, age, disability (I'm sure there are churches that won't perform weddings for people who can't have children), previous marital status, and many other reasons.
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You can find a lunatic who refuses to marry some arbitrary couple for any reason which is something far different from a religion as a whole not wanting to marry a homosexual couples due to religious objections.
 
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