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Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/rational?

Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/rational?


  • Total voters
    75
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

Because businesses operate under different rules than churches, which has been true even before same sex marriage and gay rights were an issue. There were plenty of places in the past that did not want to serve blacks or interracial couples, but they were forced to do so anyway. Yet in all that time, churches have been able to deny anyone a wedding, black couples, white couples, interracial couples, couples of a certain faith, all because churches especially when it comes to religious ceremonies, are protected from being forced to allow anyone to participate, other entities, even those where the owners are very religious or have based their business around some religious principles are not given such protections.

So you lose your religious freedom when you own a business? Please show me that in the Constitution.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

Unless I can be corrected, I don't think there is even a legal precedent requiring Churches to do so for interracial couples. Marriages from the state cannot discriminate, but as far as I am aware, those protections go out the window when a Church is conducting a religious ceremony.

There are places where judges/JoPs were refusing to perform marriages for interracial couples until someone finally said something about it in like 2010.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

So you lose your religious freedom when you own a business? Please show me that in the Constitution.

Nope. But your religious beliefs have little to do with your operation of that business and are balanced against other people's rights to participate in commerce. Complain all you want, but rights are always balanced between people.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

Nope. But your religious beliefs have little to do with your operation of that business and are balanced against other people's rights to participate in commerce. Complain all you want, but rights are always balanced between people.

If you are forced to participate in a gay wedding, that is a loss of religious freedom. Not sure why that is so difficult to understand. What part of "free exercise thereof" do you not understand?
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

That's not what I asked. How does one determine what another person truly believes, in their heart? Is merely asking enough? Or hearing an alleged testimony? What if someone claims to be a follower of Jesus Christ, yet doesn't conduct themselves in a manner consistent with the teachings of Christ? Are they still a believer? People never lie?

You/we don't. That is up to God to determine. We take people at their word. This is why it is stupid to claim that so and so isn't a Christian, because that isn't your place to say. If they claim Christianity as their religion, then they are a Christian. It is for God or any other higher power out there to determine otherwise, not other people.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

If you are forced to participate in a gay wedding, that is a loss of religious freedom. Not sure why that is so difficult to understand. What part of "free exercise thereof" do you not understand?

No one has ever been forced to participate in any wedding they didn't want to. They may have been fined for not doing something such as taking a customer who wanted a photographer to photograph their wedding or baking a cake for them, but that is no different than a photographer or baker who refuses to do the same for an interracial couple getting married or a Muslim or Jewish wedding. You are the one that fails to understand that rights are balanced. If you choose to run a business, then you must do so without discriminating based even on your religious beliefs. Otherwise, don't open a business to the public.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

The likeliness that litigation against churches who refuse to perform marriages for particular demograhics will be succesful.

No, there is no likeliness of litigation against churches for refusing to provide a marriage ceremony since churches have been refusing to perform wedding ceremonies for a very long time without such litigation. A case just in the past two years or less had a church that refused to perform a wedding for a black couple because they were black despite them actually being members of that church. No litigation because it is a church's right to participate in even such blatant discrimination when it comes to their ceremonies. You have no evidence to the contrary.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/rational?
no
yes
other

Until equal rights was given to gays in large ways, personally, Ive never heard this argument which i consider to be completely irrational, a simple fear tactic and conspiracy theory.

I see no rational basis for this fear based on equal rights for gays since there are rights, laws, the constitution and countless court case precedences blocking something this stupid.

I havent met one person that thinks churches should be forced and the reality is churches already (before gay rights) legally discriminate on marriages probably in the 1000s a day in this country and always have.

They have against straight couples, gay couples, based on race, based on religion etc etc etc
why now, magically, will this change?
why was it not a fear when minority rights were granted? womans rights? and its never been a fear based on religious discrimination?

I see ZERO logic in something so absurd BUT, I'm very curious how many people fear this lunacy and thier reasonings . . . maybe im missing something completely logical. SO far I havent seen any, so please share if it happens youll get to do a big I TOLD YOU SO lol

anyway my vote is no . . HELL NO lol

also FYI if i ever did see it as a reasonable possibility i would fight my way to the front of the line to fight it tooth and nail!
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Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

You/we don't. That is up to God to determine. We take people at their word. This is why it is stupid to claim that so and so isn't a Christian, because that isn't your place to say. If they claim Christianity as their religion, then they are a Christian. It is for God or any other higher power out there to determine otherwise, not other people.

You're right, it is up to God to determine what is in a person's heart. But God also instructs us to discern. So no, one cannot claim the mantle of Christianity, while at the same time demonstrating behavior, or teachings which run contrary to the teachings of Christ. Not only is that plain logic, but it is a theme repeated in the Bible time and time again.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

No one has ever been forced to participate in any wedding they didn't want to. They may have been fined for not doing something such as taking a customer who wanted a photographer to photograph their wedding or baking a cake for them, but that is no different than a photographer or baker who refuses to do the same for an interracial couple getting married or a Muslim or Jewish wedding. You are the one that fails to understand that rights are balanced. If you choose to run a business, then you must do so without discriminating based even on your religious beliefs. Otherwise, don't open a business to the public.

Being fined for religious freedom runs counter to the First Amendment. What part of "shall make no law" do you not understand?
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

You're right, it is up to God to determine what is in a person's heart. But God also instructs us to discern. So no, one cannot claim the mantle of Christianity, while at the same time demonstrating behavior, or teachings which run contrary to the teachings of Christ. Not only is that plain logic, but it is a theme repeated in the Bible time and time again.

Yes they can claim to be Christian without your approval or definition. You don't have to accept them as Christians, but that doesn't mean others won't accept them as such just because you don't.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

Being fined for religious freedom runs counter to the First Amendment. What part of "shall make no law" do you not understand?

Your religious freedom is balanced by other's freedom to participate in commerce. Claiming that selling something to another person violates your religious beliefs is a copout, an excuse. It could easily be used by Muslims to deny service to all women based on their religious beliefs. Others would claim that their religious beliefs prevent them from serving or employing/associating with people of certain religions or races. This is why you give up the right to use your religious beliefs against others while performing business transactions for protected classifications. You choose to operate a business, which includes operating under public accommodation laws, whether you agree with them or not.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

Being fined for religious freedom runs counter to the First Amendment. What part of "shall make no law" do you not understand?

that didnt happen in any of the examples roguenuke is talking about so theres no worries.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

Since it has never happened, no it's not rational. Fearing something that is common, for instance the government forcing churches to NOT marry certain people, is rational
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

Over 44% of people in the other thread clicked yes to "churches should be forced to preform gay marriages." Small survey sure and not indicative of the overall population, but if we just say Debate readers/pollsters, then it is clear that this pole should be yes as well.

Imagine hundreds of years of oppression coming back to bite you in the ass. Revenge is a powerful sentiment. Add poetic justice, and we would see the anti gay types have their own marriages annulled and/or forced into a same sex marriage themselves.
 
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Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

1. As I've already expressed, the likeliness of success of a given lawsuit ultimately depends on the judge (or jury) rendering the verdict.

No it does not. If it's unconstitutional, SCOTUS can grant cert and override it. In addition, there's a number of procedural standards that must be met before a case can go to trial and the appeals if it doesn't go in their favor


If you meant something else by your question, you're gonna have to specify.


2 & 3. https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/m...lic-church-it-must-permit-homosexual-adoption

Religious institutions have for some millenia (at least since Hammurabi) been forced to act against their religious creed via litigation. We normally think of this as a good thing when it comes to stoning women for adultery and such, but the development of said trend didn't stop there, as the link demonstrates. To put a finer point (and a little more recent perspective) on it, the advent of human rights is what we normally think of as seriously curtailing the power of religion to interfere in our lives. However, the question nowadays seem to be more of a matter of if and how human rights' ability to interfere in the lives of others should be curtailed.

This is a subset of the discussion of positive versus negative rights; if rights should be limited to someone not being allowed to actively interfere with your rights, or if they should be required to actively provide said rights for you. Or, in relation to the the premise of this thread, is it enough that a given religious institution not be allowed to interfere in marriages of people they don't like, or should they be required to provide such marriages. Well, as the linked article shows, at present churches in Massachusets are not only disallowed to interfere in adoptions of children to gay people (negative rights), they are required to let them adopt children under their care (positive rights). This is a clear example of an institution being required to actively provide rights for someone they didn't have to provide rights for earlier, and thus a trend indicator.

How many of those cases had separation of church and state built into their constitution? Or even a constitution lol.

Churches shouldn't be in the adoption 'business' to begin with and gay people and the adopted kids have rights that fall under compelling governmental interest. Think of a church as being *confined to a church and worship* and it really is simple. It frankly is sick that you think your beliefs can deny people the right to have kids and that is exactly the kind of mentality that makes me wish for the death of religion
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

I don't think churches should have anything to do with legal marriages.

Churches are nothing more then glorified clubs. But instead of worshipping hockey players (like sports clubs) or entertainers (like fan clubs) they worship fictitious gods that NO ONE can prove ever existed.

These pathetic and totally useless institutions should have absolutely nothing to do with legal marriages.

You want to get married, go to City Hall.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

I don't think churches should have anything to do with legal marriages.

Churches are nothing more then glorified clubs. But instead of worshipping hockey players (like sports clubs) or entertainers (like fan clubs) they worship fictitious gods that NO ONE can prove ever existed.

These pathetic and totally useless institutions should have absolutely nothing to do with legal marriages.

You want to get married, go to City Hall.

They already have nothing to do with legal marriages. You can walk down all the aisles in all the churches you want, you're still not married until you get that piece of paper from the state. No church anywhere can legally marry anyone by themselves, it's all ceremonial.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/rational?
no
yes
other

Until equal rights was given to gays in large ways, personally, Ive never heard this argument which i consider to be completely irrational, a simple fear tactic and conspiracy theory.

I see no rational basis for this fear based on equal rights for gays since there are rights, laws, the constitution and countless court case precedences blocking something this stupid.

I havent met one person that thinks churches should be forced and the reality is churches already (before gay rights) legally discriminate on marriages probably in the 1000s a day in this country and always have.

They have against straight couples, gay couples, based on race, based on religion etc etc etc
why now, magically, will this change?
why was it not a fear when minority rights were granted? womans rights? and its never been a fear based on religious discrimination?

I see ZERO logic in something so absurd BUT, I'm very curious how many people fear this lunacy and thier reasonings . . . maybe im missing something completely logical. SO far I havent seen any, so please share if it happens youll get to do a big I TOLD YOU SO lol

anyway my vote is no . . HELL NO lol

also FYI if i ever did see it as a reasonable possibility i would fight my way to the front of the line to fight it tooth and nail!



Not going to happen.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

Nope. But your religious beliefs have little to do with your operation of that business and are balanced against other people's rights to participate in commerce. Complain all you want, but rights are always balanced between people.

So, should I expect to find bacon at a halal delicatessen?
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

If you are forced to participate in a gay wedding, that is a loss of religious freedom. Not sure why that is so difficult to understand. What part of "free exercise thereof" do you not understand?

As with most wrong-wing positions that cannot be reconciled with the Constitution, I do not think it is so much that they don't understand what the Constitution says on the matter, but that they disagree with it and think that it is OK, and even obligatory, that the Constitution be disregarded where it conflicts with their preferred policy positions.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

So, should I expect to find bacon at a halal delicatessen?

please explain why your question has anythign to do with the topic at hand or the post you quoted, i cant wait to read this.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

If you are forced to participate in a gay wedding, that is a loss of religious freedom. Not sure why that is so difficult to understand. What part of "free exercise thereof" do you not understand?

ZERO people have been forced to participate in a gay wedding . . . ZERO
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

As with most wrong-wing positions that cannot be reconciled with the Constitution, I do not think it is so much that they don't understand what the Constitution says on the matter, but that they disagree with it and think that it is OK, and even obligatory, that the Constitution be disregarded where it conflicts with their preferred policy positions.

can you give us examples of anybody in this country being forced by government to participate in a gay wedding . . . .anybody?
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

So, should I expect to find bacon at a halal delicatessen?

No one has been forced to sell anything they don't already offer. The only thing that changes is who is using the cake, the same cake sold to opposite sex couples. If they don't sell bacon to anyone, then they don't but they can't refuse to sell bacon they sell to only Muslims or Jews if they offer it to Christians, atheists, others.
 
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