View Poll Results: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/rational?

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  • NO

    179 84.43%
  • YES

    22 10.38%
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    11 5.19%
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Thread: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/rational?

  1. #131
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    so far

    44 (86%) no, for obvious reasons
    4 (8%) yes though NONE of them can provide any rational reasons based on legality or even logic why
    3 (6%) others
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  2. #132
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    They claimed they received a phone call from someone asking about them performing a same sex wedding. No complaint was ever filed against them, which is the only reason any city official would initiate contact with them and there is no record or evidence any city official ever contacted them.

    They filed the suit for their fear that they could possibly face penalty for refusing even though there was never a complaint made against them, which is required before the city could take action if they were going to.
    See reply to Worldwatcher above.
    Given the dates involved, such a complaint must have been unlikely.

    I don't expect news articles to go into detail, but what all the sources I've read seem to agree on is that the Knapps were concerned about the penalty aspects of the new ordinance and contacted the city about it. They were worried about what they learned, so they contacted an attorney, who urged them to file a restraining order against the city taking action aganst them. Given that they could have been bankrupted or sent to prison even if later found innocent, the preemptory nature of their suit doesn't seem unreasonable.
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  3. #133
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    No. I do however get a kick out people that think forcing people to commence in commerce is good, but not if what we are talking about is a church. As if slavery is ok as long as its churches not being made into slaves. Oh and btw, the first amendment applies to people in and outside of church.

  4. #134
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by HK.227 View Post
    See reply to Worldwatcher above.
    Given the dates involved, such a complaint must have been unlikely.

    I don't expect news articles to go into detail, but what all the sources I've read seem to agree on is that the Knapps were concerned about the penalty aspects of the new ordinance and contacted the city about it. They were worried about what they learned, so they contacted an attorney, who urged them to file a restraining order against the city taking action aganst them. Given that they could have been bankrupted or sent to prison even if later found innocent, the preemptory nature of their suit doesn't seem unreasonable.
    Being "concerned" that something might happen in the future is not legal grounds for a lawsuit. Not one that you will win anyway.

    Plus they would have fines in all likelihood not even jail let alone prison. Something there was little chance of happening given their change in business model that happened prior to their suit being filed. They caused their problems, which is especially true if they end up complaining about how much this suit costs them in lawyer and any other fees.

    Plus for all those unaware, there is a difference between prison and jail that has to do with length of time being served. They faced at the very, very most jail time, not prison time, and that was highly unlikely to happen in any reasonable case, even if the law applied to them.
    Last edited by roguenuke; 01-19-15 at 07:09 AM.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  5. #135
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    well you have heard wrong because what you stated has never happened
    Colorado baker to stop making wedding cakes after losing discrimination case - CBS News
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  6. #136
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    thank you for posting that link as it supports me 100%
    there was ZERO force of any baker to [B]service homosexual weddings in violation of their conscience.
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  7. #137
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by HK.227 View Post
    Nope, but assuming the filed complaint is telling the truth, it's logically implicit.
    Ordinance 9.56 went into effect on the 15th, and the Knapps refused a SSM the 17th, filing the complaint the same day.
    As of the 17th when the complaint was filed, it said: "According to the City, the Knapps violated and still violate Ordinance 9.56".
    If they are "still" violating it after it, there must have been some form of contact after 9.56 went into effect.
    The ordinance had been in effect since June 4th, 2013. It didn't go in to effect on October 15th. On the 23rd, after the filing is when the city contacted The Hitching Post to inform them that as a religious corporation they were exempt. Same-sex Civil Marriage went into effect on the 15th statewide, that wasn't a date that had anything to do with the city.

    As to "must have been some form of contact after 9.56 went into effect" there is no evidence in the complaint, and the ADF lawyers were very complete in establishing a background and timeline for the case, funny that with such a thorough filing they failed to mention any contact between The Hitching Post, LLC, or the ADF made by the city pertaining to the matter. They didn't so one can only assume that you made that up.


    Quote Originally Posted by HK.227 View Post
    As I understand it, the city didn't start issuing SSM licenses until the 15th of October,...
    There you are wrong again, the city doesn't issue marriage licenses - the issuing entity in this case is the Kootenai County Recorder.

    Quote Originally Posted by HK.227 View Post
    ...so anyone filing a complaint before that would have been unlikely. Given the dates, it seems the couple were taking preemptive action.
    Exactly, it is the The Hitching Post, LLC acting in conjunction with the ADF that are trying to make a story. The never "threatened" them - answer a question when asked is not a "threat", nor had any complaint been filed where the city had initiated or planned action.


    Quote Originally Posted by HK.227 View Post
    Even if the city has decided they are exempt, it would still be interesting to see what a federal Court has to say on the matter. It might draw the line between business and religion differently than the city.

    Possible, but I don't think it will ever see the inside of a Federal court because the city didn't do anything, nor did they ever threaten anything, and even prior to the filing The Hitching Post restructured their business from an S corp to an LLC and stopped performing Civil Marriages making the case moot. My bet would be that if the ADF doesn't pull the case it will be dismissed on summary judgement.


    >>>>
    Last edited by WorldWatcher; 01-19-15 at 09:09 AM.

  8. #138
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    thank you for posting that link as it supports me 100%
    there was ZERO force of any baker to [B]service homosexual weddings in violation of their conscience.
    True. No person of faith was "forced" to participate in services for same sex marriages against their conscience. They can always just get sued or be forced to close their business.
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

  9. #139
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    1.)True. No person of faith was "forced" to participate in services for same sex marriages against their conscience.
    2.) They can always just get sued or be forced to close their business.
    1.) correct
    2.) again there would be no FORCE and that would only be successful if they CHOOSE to break the law, become criminals and violate people rights like that bakery did

    laws are laws and rights are rights

    saying they are forced is like saying rap laws could force people to be virgins, its simply disingenuous

    no business has been forced to participate in a gay marriage
    VERY easy solution, dont choose to break the law and be a criminal and one wont face the consequences
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    The ordinance had been in effect since June 4th, 2013. It didn't go in to effect on October 15th. On the 23rd, after the filing is when the city contacted The Hitching Post to inform them that as a religious corporation they were exempt. Same-sex Civil Marriage went into effect on the 15th statewide, that wasn't a date that had anything to do with the city. As to "must have been some form of contact after 9.56 went into effect" there is no evidence in the complaint, and the ADF lawyers were very complete in establishing a background and timeline for the case, funny that with such a thorough filing they failed to mention any contact between The Hitching Post, LLC, or the ADF made by the city pertaining to the matter. They didn't so one can only assume that you made that up
    June 4th is irrelevant. The city ordinance only became applicable to the Knapps as per October 15th.

    The suit states that "According to the City, the Knapps violated and still violate Ordinance 9.56". This was filed October 17th.
    You may be right, but that would mean the attorney lied when he filed the suit. I'm not disposed to believe that is the case until I see something a bit more convincing.

    I'm not sure why you keep mentioning October 23rd in relation to the suit, as any events on that day could not have influenced the Knapps in filing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    Exactly, it is the The Hitching Post, LLC acting in conjunction with the ADF that are trying to make a story. The never "threatened" them - answer a question when asked is not a "threat", nor had any complaint been filed where the city had initiated or planned action.
    The Knapps obviously disagreed since they filed a suit claiming so.
    Ok, that does it! I waste Professor Plum with the lead pipe.
    Oh yeah? Well say hello to my little friend, Colonel Mustard! Candlestick to the face!
    This is the last time I'm playing Clue with you two...

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