View Poll Results: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/rational?

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Thread: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/rational?

  1. #121
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by HK.227 View Post
    Thank you. That is very useful.

    No, I didn't research the case particularly. (I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.)

    The original complaint can be found here: http://www.adfmedia.org/files/KnappComplaint.pdf
    According to it, the couple actively refused to perform a SSM on October 17th, some 5 months after your point 8, causing one or more city officials to respond that they considered them in violation of the discimination ordinance. It therefore seems that things developed a bit further after the event you mention in point 8, causing the couples attorney to file the complaint the same day.

    However, if the city responded on the 23rd as you mention in point 15, that should be the end of any serious concerns the couple might have.

    It should still be interesting to see what the Federal Court has to say though.
    They claimed they received a phone call from someone asking about them performing a same sex wedding. No complaint was ever filed against them, which is the only reason any city official would initiate contact with them and there is no record or evidence any city official ever contacted them.

    They filed the suit for their fear that they could possibly face penalty for refusing even though there was never a complaint made against them, which is required before the city could take action if they were going to.
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  2. #122
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    it may not happen, but it is one is capable of rationally describing multiple scenario's where it could.

    Feel free to wander on over to the "church fires a worker for being pregnant and refusing to get married" thread to see how folks approach the idea that churches have a right to actually reflect their moral stances. In addition, churches often get money from allowing their space to be used for marriages - it's pretty rational to forsee a scenario where someone attempts to argue that the precedents of the abuses of the religious rights of the bakers and photographers of the world apply to a "Church involved in commerce" (since, after all, once we decide to engage in commerce, we somehow stop having religious beliefs ), and that therefore Churches that allow their facilities to be used by anyone except members cannot deny homosexual couples....


    It won't be considered - oh, what's the word - "Fair".
    Last edited by cpwill; 01-18-15 at 07:57 PM.

  3. #123
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    it may not happen, but it is one is capable of rationally describing multiple scenario's where it could.

    Feel free to wander on over to the "church fires a worker for being pregnant and refusing to get married" thread to see how folks approach the idea that churches have a right to actually reflect their moral stances. In addition, churches often get money from allowing their space to be used for marriages - it's pretty rational to forsee a scenario where someone attempts to argue that the precedents of the abuses of the religious rights of the bakers and photographers of the world apply to a "Church involved in commerce" (since, after all, once we decide to engage in commerce, we somehow stop having religious beliefs ), and that therefore Churches that allow their facilities to be used by anyone except members cannot deny homosexual couples....


    It won't be considered - oh, what's the word - "Fair".
    could you show the factual rational and logic then because nobody has been able to yet . . .
    people saying somethign online doesnt sell me on anything

    so how its rational to have those thoughts,thanks
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  4. #124
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by HK.227 View Post
    Thank you. That is very useful.

    No, I didn't research the case particularly. (I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.)

    The original complaint can be found here: http://www.adfmedia.org/files/KnappComplaint.pdf
    According to it, the couple actively refused to perform a SSM on October 17th, some 5 months after your point 8, causing one or more city officials to respond that they considered them in violation of the discimination ordinance. It therefore seems that things developed a bit further after the event you mention in point 8, causing the couples attorney to file the complaint the same day.

    However, if the city responded on the 23rd as you mention in point 15, that should be the end of any serious concerns the couple might have.

    It should still be interesting to see what the Federal Court has to say though.

    1. Could you provide a link that shows the City communicated with The Hitching Post between the after the 17th and before the 23rd when they communicated that as a religious corporation The Hitching Post is exempt from the law under the paragraph previously cited? It should be interesting to see since the ADF complaint was filed on the 17th so it wouldn't have included the information you claim.

    2. The communication where the "threat" (and I use the term loosely) occurred in the May/June time frame and it wasn't the city going to The Hitching Post and making a "threat". It was the owner that contacted the city to ask a question.



    >>>>

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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by HK.227 View Post
    It should still be interesting to see what the Federal Court has to say though.

    BTW - Personally I don't think the case will see the inside of a Federal Court for a couple of reasons:

    1. The City already acknowledged that with the incorporation of The Hitching Post in September and it's ending removing the offerings of Civil Marriges from it's site that the law no longer applies since the business is operating as a religious corporation.

    2. No complaint was filed in the May/June time frame when the owners asked the City about their status, no harm came to the business so there are no damages to correct.



    If the complaint isn't withdrawn by mutual agreement, my opinion is that it is likely to be dismissed for lack of merit.


    >>>>

  6. #126
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    BTW - Personally I don't think the case will see the inside of a Federal Court for a couple of reasons:

    1. The City already acknowledged that with the incorporation of The Hitching Post in September and it's ending removing the offerings of Civil Marriges from it's site that the law no longer applies since the business is operating as a religious corporation.

    2. No complaint was filed in the May/June time frame when the owners asked the City about their status, no harm came to the business so there are no damages to correct.



    If the complaint isn't withdrawn by mutual agreement, my opinion is that it is likely to be dismissed for lack of merit.


    >>>>
    You can't "act as" a religious corporation, you either are one, set up from the get-go legally, or you are not one. You don't get to switch back and forth at your whim.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Forty years ago, no one believed gay marriage would ever be legal in the USA.



    Things change.

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  8. #128
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    You can't "act as" a religious corporation, you either are one, set up from the get-go legally, or you are not one. You don't get to switch back and forth at your whim.
    That shouldn't even be relevant.

    Nothing in the First Amendment allows the rights affirmed therein to be dependent on whether or not one is engaging in any kind of commerce, nor which particular form of permission one may have sought from government to do so.
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  9. #129
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    You can't "act as" a religious corporation, you either are one, set up from the get-go legally, or you are not one. You don't get to switch back and forth at your whim.


    The Knapps reincorporated from an S Corp to an LLC in September, didn't say it was "at a whim". At that time they also stopped performing Civil Marriages and only now provide religious services.

    Not that much different really than the Baker in Colorado. To not provide wedding cakes to same-sex couples he changed his business model to not selling wedding cakes at all.

    >>>>
    Last edited by WorldWatcher; 01-18-15 at 11:44 PM.

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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    1. Could you provide a link that shows the City communicated with The Hitching Post between the after the 17th and before the 23rd when they communicated that as a religious corporation The Hitching Post is exempt from the law under the paragraph previously cited? It should be interesting to see since the ADF complaint was filed on the 17th so it wouldn't have included the information you claim.

    2. The communication where the "threat" (and I use the term loosely) occurred in the May/June time frame and it wasn't the city going to The Hitching Post and making a "threat". It was the owner that contacted the city to ask a question.

    >>>>
    Nope, but assuming the filed complaint is telling the truth, it's logically implicit.
    Ordinance §9.56 went into effect on the 15th, and the Knapps refused a SSM the 17th, filing the complaint the same day.
    As of the 17th when the complaint was filed, it said: "According to the City, the Knapps violated and still violate Ordinance §9.56".
    If they are "still" violating it after it, there must have been some form of contact after §9.56 went into effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    BTW - Personally I don't think the case will see the inside of a Federal Court for a couple of reasons:
    1. The City already acknowledged that with the incorporation of The Hitching Post in September and it's ending removing the offerings of Civil Marriges from it's site that the law no longer applies since the business is operating as a religious corporation.
    2. No complaint was filed in the May/June time frame when the owners asked the City about their status, no harm came to the business so there are no damages to correct.

    If the complaint isn't withdrawn by mutual agreement, my opinion is that it is likely to be dismissed for lack of merit.
    As I understand it, the city didn't start issuing SSM licenses until the 15th of October, so anyone filing a complaint before that would have been unlikely. Given the dates, it seems the couple were taking preemptive action.
    Even if the city has decided they are exempt, it would still be interesting to see what a federal Court has to say on the matter. It might draw the line between business and religion differently than the city.
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