View Poll Results: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/rational?

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    179 84.43%
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Thread: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/rational?

  1. #111
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    *******************************************

    1. The business "The Hitching Post, S Corp" probably would have run afoul of the Public Accommodation ordinance because the business advertised for and performed civil weddings in addition to the religious services they performed.

    2. The business reorganized into "The Hitching Post, LLC" and removed civil weddings from it's business model and now advertises only for traditional Christian weddings (a religious ceremony) and not civil marriages.

    3. Telling someone that asks what the penalties are for breaking the law is not a "threat". If I call the local DA's office and ask what then penalty for murder is in my state and he tells me life in prison or with unusual circumstances death, that is not the DA threatening me with life in prison or death. It's answering the question that I asked.



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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    I wouldn't think that simply removing civil marriages would protect them, they are a business and as such, subject to all anti-discrimination laws that apply to businesses. If they want to limit themselves to only Christian marriages, they'd need to become a non-profit religious organization where they get special consideration under the law. Just going "I'm a church!" doesn't make you a church.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #113
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I wouldn't think that simply removing civil marriages would protect them, they are a business and as such, subject to all anti-discrimination laws that apply to businesses. If they want to limit themselves to only Christian marriages, they'd need to become a non-profit religious organization where they get special consideration under the law. Just going "I'm a church!" doesn't make you a church.

    The ordinance passed by the City of Coeur d' Alene specifically exempts "religious corporations" (not just "Churches") and since the Chapel redesigned their business model in September they no longer provide civil ceremonies, therefore they fall under one of the exceptions to the law listed in paragraph 9.56.040.



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  4. #114
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    1.)I do not see churches ever being "forced" to marry homosexuals.
    2.) However I do think it is possible that ordained ministers could be required to perform homosexual marriages outside of church in order to be credentialed to perform marriages that are recognized by the state.

    Here's what a minister I met from Canada told me is the law there. In order to have the authority to sign marriage lisences in Canada, one must be registered with the government to do so. This registration in effect makes the person an agent authorized to validate marriages on behalf of the state. As such, state agents must comply with all laws and regulations relating to their position including anti-discrimination laws and regulations that govern state agencies and their representative when acting on behalf of the state. He says they are not required to perform homosexual weddings inside of the church or include any faith-based sacraments but as agents of the government ministers are required to perform weddings for all who request it, be it outside of the church, etc. He simply chooses to not be registered as a government marriage agent (whatever it's called.) This means he may not marry the members of his own church.

    Thinking about it, I suppose he could perform a religious marriage commitment ceremony that has no state recognition. The would mean the couple would be required have an additional state recognized ceremony somewhere such as at a courthouse before or after.

    Whether this could happen in America, I'm not sure.

    I have discussed this elsewhere and others have stated its not true of Canada. I have not been able to independently verify this outside of the statements made by the Canadian minister I met.
    1.) of course not because theres no logical reason
    2.) i so no logical reason for these either as far as "forced to marry" people is concerned
    3.) dont know if thats true about "canada" or not but in the US theres no legal precedence or even rules that make that true for ordination , so again i dont see any logic behind that concern
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  5. #115
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by HK.227 View Post
    You are of course entitled to your opinion, but the claim that there is no evidence that churches are coming under legal pressure is pretty ignorant.

    10 seconds on Google (literally) and the top hits are these:
    City threatens to arrest ministers who refuse to perform same-sex weddings | Fox News
    Gay couple files complaint for refusal of wedding - The United Methodist Church
    well maybe you should do 20 sec next time and actually READ your links
    "churches" are safe in their CHURCH/RELIGIOUS practices and thats just a fact and not ignorant in anyway what so ever

    if you disagree simply take longer this time on Google and supply any FACTUAL evidence that says otherwise
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    I did hear recently a story of a wedding services specialty business owned by a Christian being forced to service homosexual weddings (I think provide weeding cakes) in violation of their conscience.
    well you have heard wrong because what you stated has never happened
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  7. #117
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    The ordinance passed by the City of Coeur d' Alene specifically exempts "religious corporations" (not just "Churches") and since the Chapel redesigned their business model in September they no longer provide civil ceremonies, therefore they fall under one of the exceptions to the law listed in paragraph 9.56.040.



    >>>>
    So why can't anyone just declare themselves a "religious corporation" and ignore the law at their leisure?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  8. #118
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    So why can't anyone just declare themselves a "religious corporation" and ignore the law at their leisure?

    :Sigh:

    Did you miss the point where they stopped offering Civil Ceremonies and now only provide religious ceremonies?


    I'm pretty sure you would have a hard time with a plumbing business claiming that you were a religious corporation and that the installation of a commode was a religious ceremony.

    On the other and ordained ministers offering only religious services, a little more believable.



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  9. #119
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    :Sigh:

    Did you miss the point where they stopped offering Civil Ceremonies and now only provide religious ceremonies?


    I'm pretty sure you would have a hard time with a plumbing business claiming that you were a religious corporation and that the installation of a commode was a religious ceremony.

    On the other and ordained ministers offering only religious services, a little more believable.



    >>>>
    I didn't miss it at all. How does that change anything? Why can't these companies claim that paying taxes or providing their employees insurance or observing OSHA regulations are against their religious beliefs? Following the Hobby Lobby decision, all it requires is a "deeply held belief", they don't even have to prove it's part of any recognized religion, they just have to claim they have that belief and it's mighty hard to prove. That's why we draw the line between churches and businesses. Churches don't have to follow most of the anti-discrimination laws. Businesses do. I don't care how they spin their beliefs, if they're for-profit, they follow the business laws.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  10. #120
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    Have you researched the background and read the complaint? <snip>

    8. Still in May, the Knapps contacted the City Attorney and asked him what would happen if their business refused to provide same-sex marriages under the ordinance. The attorney responded with what the law said - a $1,000 fine and up to 180 days in jail. <snip>

    15. October 23rd the City sent a letter to the Knapps that said "[I]t is my opinion and the city’s position that as currently represented, the conduct by Hitching Post Weddings LLC is exempt from the requirements of the ordinance and would not be subject to prosecution under the ordinance if a complaint was received by the city."[/indent][/indent]
    Thank you. That is very useful.

    No, I didn't research the case particularly. (I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.)

    The original complaint can be found here: http://www.adfmedia.org/files/KnappComplaint.pdf
    According to it, the couple actively refused to perform a SSM on October 17th, some 5 months after your point 8, causing one or more city officials to respond that they considered them in violation of the discimination ordinance. It therefore seems that things developed a bit further after the event you mention in point 8, causing the couples attorney to file the complaint the same day.

    However, if the city responded on the 23rd as you mention in point 15, that should be the end of any serious concerns the couple might have.

    It should still be interesting to see what the Federal Court has to say though.
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