View Poll Results: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/rational?

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    179 84.43%
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    22 10.38%
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Thread: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/rational?

  1. #101
    Advisor HK.227's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No, there is no likeliness of litigation against churches for refusing to provide a marriage ceremony since churches have been refusing to perform wedding ceremonies for a very long time without such litigation. A case just in the past two years or less had a church that refused to perform a wedding for a black couple because they were black despite them actually being members of that church. No litigation because it is a church's right to participate in even such blatant discrimination when it comes to their ceremonies. You have no evidence to the contrary.
    You are of course entitled to your opinion, but the claim that there is no evidence that churches are coming under legal pressure is pretty ignorant.

    10 seconds on Google (literally) and the top hits are these:
    City threatens to arrest ministers who refuse to perform same-sex weddings | Fox News
    Gay couple files complaint for refusal of wedding - The United Methodist Church
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  2. #102
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by HK.227 View Post
    You are of course entitled to your opinion, but the claim that there is no evidence that churches are coming under legal pressure is pretty ignorant.

    10 seconds on Google (literally) and the top hits are these:
    City threatens to arrest ministers who refuse to perform same-sex weddings | Fox News
    Gay couple files complaint for refusal of wedding - The United Methodist Church
    The first one was not a church, but rather people who operated a business that centered around performing wedding ceremonies (because they were ordained ministers without a church, likely mainly for the money that performing wedding ceremonies can gain a person), including ceremonies that were not Christian at all. They had agreed to perform weddings for various non-Christians in the past and only changed that model after or just before they realized that same sex couples would soon be able to legally marry in their state. Plus, the case was brought up by them, not the state and the state told them it wasn't an issue since they changed their model to only perform certain religious specific ceremonies at their place of business. They faced no real threat when they caused this issue.

    The second was a private, internal complaint within a church that is mixed on its acceptance of homosexuality and same sex marriage. Some Methodist ministers/pastors will perform same sex weddings and have no issue with same sex couples being together or homosexuality. It is not a legal complaint in the way we are talking when we bring up governmental laws. It is an internal church issue that even the pastor says needed to be made to point out the contradiction in the Church laws. In fact, the pastor was willing to bless their union in the church and perform a wedding ceremony for them outside the church property. The laws of the church, which are a private issue to begin with, are what caused the couple to truly make the complaint, not the actual preacher/minister refusing due to the contradiction that the Laws were making.

    Maybe you should have read up on those a little further before trying to use them.
    Last edited by roguenuke; 01-17-15 at 07:32 AM.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  3. #103
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/rational?
    no
    yes
    other

    Until equal rights was given to gays in large ways, personally, Ive never heard this argument which i consider to be completely irrational, a simple fear tactic and conspiracy theory.

    I see no rational basis for this fear based on equal rights for gays since there are rights, laws, the constitution and countless court case precedences blocking something this stupid.

    I havent met one person that thinks churches should be forced and the reality is churches already (before gay rights) legally discriminate on marriages probably in the 1000s a day in this country and always have.

    They have against straight couples, gay couples, based on race, based on religion etc etc etc
    why now, magically, will this change?
    why was it not a fear when minority rights were granted? womans rights? and its never been a fear based on religious discrimination?

    I see ZERO logic in something so absurd BUT, I'm very curious how many people fear this lunacy and thier reasonings . . . maybe im missing something completely logical. SO far I havent seen any, so please share if it happens youll get to do a big I TOLD YOU SO lol

    anyway my vote is no . . HELL NO lol

    also FYI if i ever did see it as a reasonable possibility i would fight my way to the front of the line to fight it tooth and nail!
    I do not see churches ever being "forced" to marry homosexuals. However I do think it is possible that ordained ministers could be required to perform homosexual marriages outside of church in order to be credentialed to perform marriages that are recognized by the state.

    Here's what a minister I met from Canada told me is the law there. In order to have the authority to sign marriage lisences in Canada, one must be registered with the government to do so. This registration in effect makes the person an agent authorized to validate marriages on behalf of the state. As such, state agents must comply with all laws and regulations relating to their position including anti-discrimination laws and regulations that govern state agencies and their representative when acting on behalf of the state. He says they are not required to perform homosexual weddings inside of the church or include any faith-based sacraments but as agents of the government ministers are required to perform weddings for all who request it, be it outside of the church, etc. He simply chooses to not be registered as a government marriage agent (whatever it's called.) This means he may not marry the members of his own church.

    Thinking about it, I suppose he could perform a religious marriage commitment ceremony that has no state recognition. The would mean the couple would be required have an additional state recognized ceremony somewhere such as at a courthouse before or after.

    Whether this could happen in America, I'm not sure.

    I have discussed this elsewhere and others have stated its not true of Canada. I have not been able to independently verify this outside of the statements made by the Canadian minister I met.
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    I did hear recently a story of a wedding services specialty business owned by a Christian being forced to service homosexual weddings (I think provide weeding cakes) in violation of their conscience.
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

  5. #105
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    About as likely as Catholic churches being forced to perform Muslim weddings.
    A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
    Winston Churchill



    A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.
    Winston Churchill

  6. #106
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Maybe you should have read up on those a little further before trying to use them.
    I concede the point on the second link. No excuse, just laziness on my part.
    As for the first, I see your point but find it irrelevant. It's a chapel. Offering it's religious services for pay does not change anything of substance.

    But I have to admit, that upon reading up a bit on the subject, I find the possibility less likely than previously.
    I was unaware that all the SSM Laws passed in the US excplicitly state that they do not require religions to perform them. That certainly provides greater legal protection that simply leaving any mention of them out of said Laws.
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  7. #107
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    It's not a rational idea, nor something that is likely to happen.
    Social democrat is no longer an accurate description of my views.

  8. #108
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by HK.227 View Post
    I concede the point on the second link. No excuse, just laziness on my part.
    As for the first, I see your point but find it irrelevant. It's a chapel. Offering it's religious services for pay does not change anything of substance.

    But I have to admit, that upon reading up a bit on the subject, I find the possibility less likely than previously.
    I was unaware that all the SSM Laws passed in the US excplicitly state that they do not require religions to perform them. That certainly provides greater legal protection that simply leaving any mention of them out of said Laws.
    How about the fact that no one actually brought any complaints against the chapel, nor were they facing any legal action at all when they filed a suit against the state, for no reason except to either gain fame or make a fuss. Plus, anyone can call any business a chapel, but that doesn't mean they can discriminate. Do you believe that those wedding chapels in Vegas where you can get married by Elvis or as zombies can legally tell a Muslim couple or an interracial couple that they won't marry them?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  9. #109
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    How about the fact that no one actually brought any complaints against the chapel, nor were they facing any legal action at all when they filed a suit against the state, for no reason except to either gain fame or make a fuss.
    Are you personally familiar with the couple in question, since you know their motives for filing the suit?
    According to the article, a city attorney threatened enforcement, and their own attorney advises that “The threat of enforcement is more than just credible.”.
    It would therefore appear they simply beat the city to the punch.
    Ok, that does it! I waste Professor Plum with the lead pipe.
    Oh yeah? Well say hello to my little friend, Colonel Mustard! Candlestick to the face!
    This is the last time I'm playing Clue with you two...

  10. #110
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    Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

    Quote Originally Posted by HK.227 View Post
    Are you personally familiar with the couple in question, since you know their motives for filing the suit?
    According to the article, a city attorney threatened enforcement, and their own attorney advises that “The threat of enforcement is more than just credible.”.
    It would therefore appear they simply beat the city to the punch.


    Have you researched the background and read the complaint?

    In my understanding is the city never "threatened" anyone.

    My reading on the case from various sources seems to make the following timeline (this is from memory) feel free to correct me if I'm wrong factually:

    1. Prior status: The Hitching Post existed as an S Corporation. A form of corporation used for closely held businesses where the business does not pay federal income taxes but profits or losses are the direct responsibility of the shareholders. In other words if the business has a major loss (like losing a lawsuit) then it is the owners who are personally responsible for paying for the loss.

    2. May 2014, Idaho's ban on same-sex Civil Marriage is found to be unconstitutional in Federal District court.

    3. The ruling was stayed pending appeal to the 9th Circuit Court.

    4. During this timeframe history, May ruling and during the stay period The Hitching Post performed and advertised for "traditional and civil marriages". (This is important.)

    Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/rational?-hitching-post-jpg

    5. In May a reporter talked to the Knapps about the District Court ruling and that Idaho's law had been ruled unconstitutional.

    6. Still in May and only days after the District Court ruling the city attorney (Warren Wilson) was asked about The Hitching Post as a Public Accommodation and said the below (from the ADF lawsuit). Now if you look in the news report were this comes from (https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=s19VX8KVSp4), he's standing outside the building so obviously it was a walkup, outside interview and we have no idea the level of preparation - if any. There is no "threat" there, simply pointing out that under the ordinance businesses in the wedding business would fall under the law.

    “I think that term is broad enough that it would capture (wedding)
    activity,” city attorney Warren Wilson said. Similar laws have applied to florists,
    bakeries and photographers that have refused to work on same-sex weddings in
    other states, Wilson noted. “Those have all been addressed in various states and
    run afoul of state prohibitions similar to this,” he said. “I would think that the
    Hitching Post would probably be considered a place of public accommodation
    that would be subject to the ordinance.” In Washington, no clergy person is
    required to marry a couple if doing so would violate the dictates of their faith
    tradition. Idaho does not have a similar exemption in place, but religious entities
    are exempt from the Coeur d’Alene ordinance, so pastors in the city are not
    obligated to perform same-sex weddings. But any nonreligious business that hosts
    civil ceremonies would fall under the city law, Wilson said."

    7. Between May and October The Hitiching post continues to advertise for Civil Marriages.

    8. Still in May, the Knapps contacted the City Attorney and asked him what would happen if their business refused to provide same-sex marriages under the ordinance. The attorney responded with what the law said - a $1,000 fine and up to 180 days in jail.

    9. September 2014 The Hitching Post changes it's legal status from an S Corp to a Limited Liability Company (LLC) which provides a hirer degree of insulation for the owners personal assets in the event of a major loss by the LLC.

    10. October 6th The Hitching Post files file documents showing the intent to operate a religious organization.

    11. October 7th Idaho's ban being found unconstitutional is upheld by the 9th Circuit.

    12. Sometime shortly after the ban the website for The Hitching Post purged references to Civil Marriages and emphasized that they would only perform traditional Christian weddings.

    13. October, SCOTUS rejects stay request.

    14. October 15th SSCM's start.

    15. October 23rd the City sent a letter to the Knapps that said "[I]t is my opinion and the city’s position that as currently represented, the conduct by Hitching Post Weddings LLC is exempt from the requirements of the ordinance and would not be subject to prosecution under the ordinance if a complaint was received by the city."



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