View Poll Results: Should the Satan religious display be allowed in the florida state capital

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Thread: Should the Satan religious display be allowed in the florida state capital?

  1. #41
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    Re: Should the Satan religious display be allowed in the florida state capital?

    In my opinion their should be no religious displays on state property. But if Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc can put up their displays then Satanists as well.


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    Re: Should the Satan religious display be allowed in the florida state capital?

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    The space in question is not a "religious display zone." It's a "free speech zone."

    There are no requirements for the displays to be religious, or genuine, or honest.

    If anyone is being dishonest, it's the legislators. They've tried to do an end-run around the constitutional prohibition on the establishment of religion, and it's biting them in the ass, just like they deserve.
    There are still requirements that those that petition government official to do something be honest. Lying to public officials is actually a crime. It is a law that has been around for longer than I know of and the 1st Amendment does not protect people that lie to government officials. It is called perjury, misrepresentation, or obstruction of justice depending on the context. The one that would apply here is misrepresentation.

    And fact of the matter is that the legislators are not trying to do "and end-run around the constitution". The Constitution does not prohibit displays of religion on public property in the slightest. The 1st Amendment prohibits the government from establishing a religion. That is it. And even then the ONLY reason that it currently applies to the state governments is due to the 14th Amendment equality clause. By itself the 1st Amendment only talks about Congress. Not the States.
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    Re: Should the Satan religious display be allowed in the florida state capital?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    In my opinion their should be no religious displays on state property. But if Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc can put up their displays then Satanists as well.
    Bold: I agree. So long as those "Satanists" are representing themselves truthfully. But if those "Satanists" are not really Satanists but atheists claiming that they are Satanists then that is misrepresenting what they are and they should be barred for doing such.

    But hey, who cares about honesty and morality in this day and age right? So long as your side gets advancements in what YOU want then let them continue. Right? Just remember this though folks. Next time you try and claim the moral highroad I'll be pointing at these threads and showing that you don't really care about morality and honesty. You just care about pushing your agenda's upon everyone else.

    (Note: the "YOU's" in this post are meant to be general and not directed at any specific person)
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    Re: Should the Satan religious display be allowed in the florida state capital?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Bold: I agree. So long as those "Satanists" are representing themselves truthfully. But if those "Satanists" are not really Satanists but atheists claiming that they are Satanists then that is misrepresenting what they are and they should be barred for doing such.
    How will you judge what they "actually believe/not believe"?


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    Re: Should the Satan religious display be allowed in the florida state capital?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    There are still requirements that those that petition government official to do something be honest. Lying to public officials is actually a crime.
    What in the name of [deity of your choice] are you talking about?

    It's not a crime to lie to a public official. Perjury is a crime, and it is far more specific than a generic "lying to officials." Fortunately, that doesn't even remotely apply here.

    1) This was not a court proceeding.
    2) No one made any false statements under oath.
    3) The state of Florida cannot stipulate that displays in its "free speech zone" (or on any specific patch of public property) must be religious, or represent a religion. Period.
    4) The atheist group in question did not bother to pretend that they were a religious organization, and have been explicit that they're not actually Satanists. They were explicitly and publicly criticizing the placement of nativity scenes on public property.

    Fail.


    And fact of the matter is that the legislators are not trying to do "and end-run around the constitution".
    Yeah, they are. It's pretty screamingly obvious that they did this in order to allow nativity scenes. Since it is not the government's job to display nativity scenes, I feel zero sympathy for anyone involved. There's plenty of private property and church lawns for those types of displays.


    The Constitution does not prohibit displays of religion on public property in the slightest.
    Yes, it pretty much does. Numerous courts have recognized that allowing a government to exclude any religion (or, by extension, materialist philosophical and atheist positions) qualifies as an "establishment of religion;" and this has been applied to state governments for decades as well. Exceptions are rare and usually made only for displays with some type of historic value.

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    Re: Should the Satan religious display be allowed in the florida state capital?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    If it's a legitimate religion yes they have the same rights and protections under the Constitution. I guess it comes down to the State Constitution and the protections of religion as well as what exactly IS a legitimately recognized religion.
    Not legit by definition. No point in pretending otherwise.

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    Re: Should the Satan religious display be allowed in the florida state capital?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    How will you judge what they "actually believe/not believe"?
    I don't need to judge it. Their statements make it for themselves.
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    Re: Should the Satan religious display be allowed in the florida state capital?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I don't need to judge it. Their statements make it for themselves.
    If they believe in a diety known as "Satan" who "allows them ultimate freedom", who are you to tell them that they are really not a religion or religious? They say they "believe" in this, and its their "faith".


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    Re: Should the Satan religious display be allowed in the florida state capital?

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    What in the name of [deity of your choice] are you talking about?

    It's not a crime to lie to a public official. Perjury is a crime, and it is far more specific than a generic "lying to officials." Fortunately, that doesn't even remotely apply here.

    1) This was not a court proceeding.
    2) No one made any false statements under oath.
    3) The state of Florida cannot stipulate that displays in its "free speech zone" (or on any specific patch of public property) must be religious, or represent a religion. Period.
    4) The atheist group in question did not bother to pretend that they were a religious organization, and have been explicit that they're not actually Satanists. They were explicitly and publicly criticizing the placement of nativity scenes on public property.

    Fail.
    The fail is on your side. In order for these atheists to put up their display they have to fill out a form correct? Lying on official forms is ILLEGAL. Don't believe me? Go and fill out a public form for the government and lie on it. Let them know you lied after you submit it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Yeah, they are. It's pretty screamingly obvious that they did this in order to allow nativity scenes. Since it is not the government's job to display nativity scenes, I feel zero sympathy for anyone involved. There's plenty of private property and church lawns for those types of displays.
    Its also screamingly obvious that they have let even liars put their display's up. And as you keep re-iterating its a free speech zone, not just a religious display zone. You defeat your own argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Yes, it pretty much does. Numerous courts have recognized that allowing a government to exclude any religion (or, by extension, materialist philosophical and atheist positions) qualifies as an "establishment of religion;" and this has been applied to state governments for decades as well. Exceptions are rare and usually made only for displays with some type of historic value.
    Oh look, you provided you're own answer here. Displays are perfectly constitutional so long as the government doesn't play favorites. And it sure seems to me that is exactly what happened here. No favorites was played. Which means its perfectly constitutional.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Should the Satan religious display be allowed in the florida state capital?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    If they believe in a diety known as "Satan" who "allows them ultimate freedom", who are you to tell them that they are really not a religion or religious? They say they "believe" in this, and its their "faith".
    Except that they don't believe in Satan. They believe that Man made up all deities (which would include Satan). That is from their own website. If you don't believe in a deity or several deities then you are, by definition, an atheist.

    As I said, their own statements make it for themselves.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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