View Poll Results: When did the United States change stop following the founding fathers vision

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  • 1790-1860

    93 35.09%
  • 1860-1900

    70 26.42%
  • 1900-1932

    57 21.51%
  • 1932-1945

    26 9.81%
  • Other (explain)

    19 7.17%
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Thread: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

  1. #31
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    That leaves out an important 10A "detail":

    "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

    That (bolded above) clause is very important but seems to have no meaning now unless one gets the SCOTUS to say that the 14th amendment also applies to rights (rather than powers). That is the basis for most gun control ("reasonable" restrictions at the state level) not being found to violate the 2A "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
    You are correct, I didn't include it in my second post. I think I did that because state/local are going to be the smallest governing bodies and I was thinking law rather than free exercise of will. The people ultimately hold the bulk of the power, however legislation comes from elected bodies and that is where my focus was.
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  2. #32
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    I noticed that a lot of folks seem to see constitutional amendments (e.g. ending slavery, giving women the vote and taxing personal income) as when we stopped following the "founders" visions. I see constitutional amendment as completely OK because the "founders" thought far enough ahead to make such action possible. I chose 1937, with the "marijuana tax act"' as a critical point when the federal government decided that things could simply be banned (and unlike alcohol, without need of constituional amendment) simply becuase they were not popular with certain key players.

    Marihuana Tax Act of 1937 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    That didnt ban marijuana only tax it.

  3. #33
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    I know this isn't the answer wanted, but this is my opinion.

    The first nation was from 1789-1860. This was a weak nation in which the states held sway, and slavery was allowed. During this time, not even one state could be added without another state being added so as to preserve the balance of power between states in which slavery was permitted and those in which it was not. In essence, see the War of 1812 and the Missouri Compromise to show what the deal really was. By the 1850s this system was breaking down. This "First Republic" lasted about 70 years

    In 1860, some states tried to leave and a new Republic was founded with greater Federal control. The idea that states could leave was thrown out, as was the idea that slavery could be permitted. The power of this Republic grew and we were finally able to assert ourselves on the world stage, culminating in WWI. However, a new power had risen that was equal in power to the slaveholders, this being the trusts and monopolies. In 1929 that came crashing down far more suddenly, and by 1932 it was clear that it wasn't working. This "Second Republic" lasted about 70 years as well.

    In 1932, another new nation rose from the ashes. This one placed greater emphasis on the individual than either of the previous two. Social welfare systems came into being, and eventually racial segregation came to an end. No longer was a citizen only useful as long as his owner (be it the slaveholder or the trusts) found them useful. This "Third Republic" has just passed its 80th year.

    In some ways we're overdue for another redo. It's worth noting that in neither of the previous 2 re-incarnations of the United States have things been completely thrown out, nor did anybody really go away. For years after the beginning of the Second Republic, those not involved in its founding tried to undermine it (see Jim Crow laws), and since the beginning of the Third, those who feel they were not involved are trying to undermine it ("Corporations are People," seeking to undo welfare). Now what we have is the Founders of the Second Republic (the Republican party) and the Founders of the Third (the Democratic party) fighting it out to see where we go now. Clearly the Third Republic has reached it's breaking point, but so far nobody has stepped up with a new vision.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.

  4. #34
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Do individual constitutional rights really change when you cross state/local borders within the US?
    The dont change because constitutional rights were only intended to protect a person from the federal govt.

  5. #35
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    That didnt ban marijuana only tax it.
    The beauty of it was the trick involved. They made it necessary to "get a license," but refused to sell said licenses. So they essentially banned it through the backdoor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.

  6. #36
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    The beauty of it was the trick involved. They made it necessary to "get a license," but refused to sell said licenses. So they essentially banned it through the backdoor.
    Yes thats true but ttwtt claimed that the govt started simply started unconstitutionally banning things when they have always used constitutional loopholes like that

  7. #37
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    The dont change because constitutional rights were only intended to protect a person from the federal govt.
    Really? No need for those Miranda warnings at the state level? No need for any due process at the state level?
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  8. #38
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Really? No need for those Miranda warnings at the state level? No need for any due process at the state level?
    Well obviously there is now with the 14th amendment but the founders as a group didnt think so when the refused to incorporate the bill of rights like Patrick Henry was pushing for.

    Side note, I still dont see the point of Miranda warnings you cant protect stupid people against themselves

  9. #39
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    can somebody explain the obsession with keeping government in America as it was 225 years ago when we were a tiny backwater coastal strip of 4 million farmers and fisherman pretty much isolated from the rest of the world?

    It would be like a 45 year old trying to fit into the outfit he wore for his third birthday.
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  10. #40
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    This should provide an interesting discussion.

    The question is this: can you estimate the time period where the united state stopped following the founding fathers exact vision of how the government should operate, as detailed in the federalist papers, U.S constitution, and other founding documents?

    The time periods under scrutiny are as follows:

    1. 1790-1860s. The first time frame covers the administrations of the founding fathers and goes up to the start of the civil war. This time frame assumes that the founding fathers did not adhere to a static interpration of the constitution and found it necessary to fill in the blanks with regards to practical governance.

    2.the second time frame starts in 1860 and concludes around 1900.

    3. Time frame three is set around 1900 and lasts until 1932.

    4. The fourth choice of time frame is from 1932 to 1945.

    If these options seem limited, make your own theory as a fifth option.
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