View Poll Results: When did the United States change stop following the founding fathers vision

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Thread: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

  1. #21
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    yep, that's exactly what i was trying to say.

    a lot of people like to argue that we've betrayed the founding fathers by giving the poor welfare while ignoring the fact that Washington didn't even like political parties much and would definitely not have dug a state of perpetual war. like everything else, there's a lot of nuance when we're talking about the founding fathers.
    And a lot of over lay and misinterpretation.

    I do not believe the founding fathers were all seeing, nor heroes either, but men with a vision, who were well compensated for their time, they saw to that, beginning a long standing tradition of pocket lining.

    The first to digress from the plan, was the architect himself, Thomas Jefferson who broke the intended tradition of one party, two candidates, second place gets a useless but highly paid job. He formed a second party and campaigned for four years after having been snookered in the first "stolen election" which he had not foreseen.

    I do not believe they foresaw how deeply would the courts become law makers, and never foresaw the on-going concentration of power in the presidency.

    So in answer to the question of when the departure started...right at the beginning when Mr. Adams conspired with Mr. Washington to create dynasties.
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  2. #22
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Well many of the founding fathers didnt even follow their own vision.. So pretty damn early...


  3. #23
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?


  4. #24
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    I noticed that a lot of folks seem to see constitutional amendments (e.g. ending slavery, giving women the vote and taxing personal income) as when we stopped following the "founders" visions. I see constitutional amendment as completely OK because the "founders" thought far enough ahead to make such action possible. I chose 1937, with the "marijuana tax act"' as a critical point when the federal government decided that things could simply be banned (and unlike alcohol, without need of constituional amendment) simply becuase they were not popular with certain key players.

    Marihuana Tax Act of 1937 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Nonsense. About half the delegates didn't want slavery at all. Slavery was a compromise. Philly already freed any slaves brought there. It's why it wasn't chosen as our capitol. And we beat most of the rest of the world in the women's suffrage race.

    Timeline of women's suffrage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    And this has to do with liberty and self-governance for anyone besides wealthy landed white men being completely different from the founders' ideas... how? I get the knee-jerk reaction to any criticism of the United States' history, but it's not even on topic.
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    Please explain what you learned about this issue that allows you to draw that conclusion.

    You sound like you are arguing for is a strict constructionist interpration of the constitution, similar to what Jefferson believed in.

    You seem to oppose the Hamiltonian concept of government so vehemently that it appears to loose all validity.

    But didn't mcculloch v Maryland strike down Jeffersons ideals in favor of hamaltons? Or was mucculloch v Maryland an example of the tortured logic that Jefferson hated Hamilton for?
    I studied poli-sci in college among many other things. The tenth is a specific prohibition on powers not granted to the federal, to my knowledge that has not been replaced by a legitimate amendment as of now. The tenth specifically and with clear verbiage states that the states retain all powers not granted the federal. MvM was a direct power grab by SCOTUS, they asserted a power not granted that branch by the constitution.
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  7. #27
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    And this has to do with liberty and self-governance for anyone besides wealthy landed white men being completely different from the founders' ideas... how? I get the knee-jerk reaction to any criticism of the United States' history, but it's not even on topic.
    Obviously the Constitution is repugnant to anyone with socialist beliefs.
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  8. #28
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    And a lot of over lay and misinterpretation.

    I do not believe the founding fathers were all seeing, nor heroes either, but men with a vision, who were well compensated for their time, they saw to that, beginning a long standing tradition of pocket lining.

    The first to digress from the plan, was the architect himself, Thomas Jefferson who broke the intended tradition of one party, two candidates, second place gets a useless but highly paid job. He formed a second party and campaigned for four years after having been snookered in the first "stolen election" which he had not foreseen.

    I do not believe they foresaw how deeply would the courts become law makers, and never foresaw the on-going concentration of power in the presidency.

    So in answer to the question of when the departure started...right at the beginning when Mr. Adams conspired with Mr. Washington to create dynasties.
    i have a lot of respect for them, though i agree more with some than with others. Washington, especially, who warned against political parties and foreign entanglements.

  9. #29
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Basten View Post
    I don't think we really ever did, we've just refined their vision and methods towards that vision. We've grown a tad wiser since then, we're far more fair now. It's a process.

    I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and Constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors." — Thomas Jefferson

    I think they knew there'd be some changes along the way. Doesn't mean it's meant to crap on the founders' ideals and thoughts about this nation's future. The constitution is still sacred, it's just not all of us view it so rigidly.

    And yea like others have said, starting from John Adams and onwards, people have pulled some risky business with the government for a while now.
    Changes along the way, via constitutional amendment, are all well and good; changes along the way, via ignoring the actual words in (meaning of?) the constitution, are dangerous precedents to establish.

    When the simple power to "tax income from all sources" (16th amendment) is interpreted to mean that federal taxation may be based upon how one chose not to spend their personal income then we are in serious trouble. If you do not spend your money exactly as federally mandated then you owe a tax (a penalty with no due process involved?) for making that (previously free) choice.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  10. #30
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    Re: When did the United States stop following the path of the founding fathers?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I studied poli-sci in college among many other things. The tenth is a specific prohibition on powers not granted to the federal, to my knowledge that has not been replaced by a legitimate amendment as of now. The tenth specifically and with clear verbiage states that the states retain all powers not granted the federal. MvM was a direct power grab by SCOTUS, they asserted a power not granted that branch by the constitution.
    That leaves out an important 10A "detail":

    "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

    That (bolded above) clause is very important but seems to have no meaning now unless one gets the SCOTUS to say that the 14th amendment also applies to rights (rather than powers). That is the basis for most gun control ("reasonable" restrictions at the state level) not being found to violate the 2A "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

    Do individual constitutional rights really change when you cross state/local borders within the US?
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 12-27-14 at 09:42 PM. Reason: added final question
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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